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Post by Admin on Feb 28, 2016 7:44:51 GMT
It has been suggested on a thread that we post up our frame numbers and see if we can once and for all, make any sense out of them.
I remember that someone did post a list of their own frame numbers a while back, but I cannot find it now in order to copy and paste here.
I suppose you would need to also post the bike model name (roughly what year?) Anything else you think we might need to make it a valuable exercise?
Thanks in advance for contributions!
Now, where's my shed key?
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on Feb 28, 2016 12:06:23 GMT
Here's some of mine - Will be later on before I get to check the Indy 500 and the Grand Prix 600ex (1981/2?) 164954Corsair Wayfarer (1981/82) 3 33420 (For info- The first 3 is placed at a short distance before and slightly above the second 3, maybe indicating that the 33420 could have been done by one person and then the first '3' digit added later...or maybe not???)Aerospace Pro (1977?) 460767Deore 18 ax (1981?) 19594?Deore 18ax (1981?) 19594? possibly an 8? Both been rubbed by RD cable Aerospace Sport (1976/77?) It looks like it had a frame number beneath which started with a P but has had a fresh one over the top which is 107152 (It looks too crisp for it to be original?) Sebring mixte (1977/8/79?) 962401From this I conclude....(drum roll please)... Not much really except on these at least they used a 6 digit serial. And the Deore 18AX just might have been model number 195 with the last 3 digits being the unique number (if 1000 were made?) In which case my pair where within 10 bikes of each other off the line? Bit of an outside possibility. For info one came from Macclesfield and the other somewhere near Huddersfield. Not a million miles apart, but would the bikes roll off the line and all be taken up to retailers in bulk like that or just ordered in as and when when sold? For what it's worth, when I got my first Viscount in 1980/81. The local bike shop had just one of each model I think and then you ordered the size you wanted. I can't really see the fog clearing on this one anytime soon.
EDIT- I personally don't see a year date in these numbers...The Pro could possibly have the '6' or '7' indicating a year, the Sebring at a push the '6', the Corsair the '2' or '3' and the 600ex the '1'. So by the 80's the first digit could be the year...? But that is a very big guess and I would even bet my lunch money on that.
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Post by sprockit on Feb 28, 2016 22:03:40 GMT
T'was me! I posted the frame numbers of several bikes not long after DFR.
I've added to my collection since then, so I'll consult my list and post the numbers and my thoughts on here - and I know that they'll make interesting reading!
As for frame numbers, I do urge people to keep a record of them. A family member locked an old folding bike to railings last year and returned to find the lock and chain had been parted and the bike gone. The bike turned up on the local flea market about three weeks later, and by virtue of being able to show the frame number of the missing bike, said bike was returned.
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Post by triitout on Feb 29, 2016 0:55:25 GMT
I love a good mystery/puzzle. From what I see, there was more than one serial # system. I've lumped mine together where they seem to match up and have included our new member "Sad" who previously posted his serial #
5406 EA which is a blue/white Aerospace GP from Colorado
2549 EA which is a red/white Aerospace GP from somewhere in the mid-west I think
0007000 3K which is the world famous blue/white "Mojave" Aerospace GP from California of course. Maybe it was custom for James Bond himself!!
008624 3K another Aerospace GP posted by "sad" who is located in Arizona
010061 K3 a red/white Aerospace GP from Minnesota
760575 Gran Sports, also an Aerospace frame
591520 Gran Touring, an Aerospace frame in yellow
581691 Gran Touring an Aerospace frame in blue ( revised after sanding away touchup paint 4/27/2016)
550322 Aerospace Pro in blue and silver
4882 EA Aerospace Pro in black and silver
So we've got a 6 digit system, a 4 digit followed by EA, another 6-7 digit system followed by 3K, and yet another 6 digit followed by K3
From some other bicycle manufacturer's serial code patterns, often the 1st digit is the month and the second digit indicates the year which might work for the 6 digit system on Aerospace frames from the 70's. I know some of you are more up on the different factories so I'd guess that's also part of the puzzle.
We're up to around 150 forum members so maybe more samples and sharp minds will get us somewhere!!!
Cheers, Michael
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Feb 29, 2016 3:55:13 GMT
I will add my two:
533676, Aerospace Pro, 03713 3K, Aerospace, This one has much nicer fillet joins than 533676.
Jim
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on Feb 29, 2016 6:18:12 GMT
I have just the thing...
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Post by velocipete on Feb 29, 2016 7:34:12 GMT
Just need the rotor settings and we're in with a chance! I'll post mine when I get to my storeage unless they show on some of my photos. Cheers, Pete.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on Feb 29, 2016 8:06:10 GMT
One might guess at the 'E' on those US bikes , standing for 'export', but the system is not consistent and therefore just coincidence. (?)
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Post by kickstandman on Feb 29, 2016 16:06:26 GMT
Just need the rotor settings and we're in with a chance! I'll post mine when I get to my storeage unless they show on some of my photos. Cheers, Pete. I'm in this boat as well but should be able to get mine this week some time.
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Post by dracco on Feb 29, 2016 18:19:51 GMT
"Corsair Wayfarer (1981/82) 3 33420 (For info- The first 3 is placed at a short distance before and slightly above the second 3, maybe indicating that the 33420 could have been done by one person and then the first '3' digit added later...or maybe not???)"
Well, here's some consistency: My Corsair Wayfarer frame number is 333442.
Attachments:
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on Feb 29, 2016 18:43:50 GMT
"Corsair Wayfarer (1981/82) 3 33420 (For info- The first 3 is placed at a short distance before and slightly above the second 3, maybe indicating that the 33420 could have been done by one person and then the first '3' digit added later...or maybe not???)"
Well, here's some consistency: My Corsair Wayfarer frame number is 333442.
Woo hoo! EDIT- It would really help if we knew a rough idea of the amount of each model that were built. Just as an instinctive reaction,I feel that there cannot be a run of less than 1000 on the Corsair can there? And it's not going to be above 10,000 either? (or maybe I am wrong) But - bearing in mind the frame is the same for a variety of models , then would the frame number indicate within it, the overall number of the frame made, rather than the number made of the individual model? After all, the frame number is stamped before spraying etc, What are other people's thoughts on this?
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 1, 2016 2:34:45 GMT
I think the fellow who applied the serial numbers was a bit sloppy. In my minds eye I keep seeing an elderly English character actor who visits a local pub for liquid lunch. The strangeness in the serial numbers reflects if they were applied before, or after lunch.
Seriously, and only guessing, I suspect the funny spacing on 333420 and the one with K3 instead of 3K, was sloppiness or a fix. I also suspect the 3K and EA may indicate the production location. I doubt it is a date code as I only see two combinations. The longer numbers may have been a change in the serial numbering system that may or may not contain a date code. Only the old fellow who had the liquid lunch knows for sure.
For a decent guess, we need more examples.
2549 EA Which is a red/white Aerospace GP from somewhere in the mid-west I think 03713 3K Aerospace in USA 5406 EA Which is a blue/white Aerospace GP from Colorado 7000 3K Which is the world famous blue/white "Mojave" Aerospace GP from California of course. Maybe it was custom for James Bond himself!! 8624 3K Another Aerospace GP posted by "sad" who is located in Arizona 10061 K3 A red/white Aerospace GP from Minnesota 107152 Aerospace Sport (1976/77?) It looks like it had a frame number beneath which started with a P but has had a fresh one over the top which is 107152 (It looks too crisp for it to be original?) 164954 600ex (1981/2?) 195948 Deore 18ax (1981?) 19594? possibly an 8? Both been rubbed by RD cable 3 33420 Corsair Wayfarer (1981/82) 3 33420 (For info- The first 3 is placed at a short distance before and slightly above the second 3, maybe indicating that the 33420 could have been done by one person and then the first '3' digit added later...or maybe not???) 333442 Corsair Wayfarer 460767 Aerospace Pro (1977?) 533676 Aerospace Pro in USA 550322 Aerospace Pro 591520 Gran Touring, an Aerospace frame as well 760575 Gran Sports, also an Aerospace frame in Yellow 962401 Sebring mixte (1977/8/79?)
Cheers Jim
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Post by velocipete on Mar 1, 2016 7:38:18 GMT
My Aerospace Pro,steel forked from new,has the following;- PO 761811 Potters Bar produced? I'll get my Sport number as soon as I can. Cheers, Pete.
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Post by cusqueno on Mar 1, 2016 15:58:52 GMT
Checked my red Aerospace (probably a fairly late one) by photographing the underside of the bb with my 'phone while the bike was in a high bike rack. This told me (1) it's looking a bit rusty under there - needs a more thorough check! (2) it is stamped, very boldly with PJ R - the P & J quite close and the R a fair distance away (about 10-15mm?) but in one line. Above those letters I can make out 118. There might be some other numbers after the 8, but if so, they are very faint. Will have to await a closer inspection. Can't think what the PJ R would be - doesn't make sense as a post code and why stamp your initials on the bb? Suggests it might have been done by Viscount for some reason. Or an LBS wanting to keep track of its sales or repairs?
By the way, if you see 'Davis Components' stamped on the bb shell and a series of numbers, this is the shell manufacturer and the appropriate tube angles. I think this only applies to some Lamberts, but I could be wrong.
Talking of rust, what do you prefer in the way of internal frame protection and how do you apply it? I know some people use ACF-50 and others use Frame Protect (the latter rather expensive in the UK I think). I'll start another thread for rust protection.
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Post by raymondo on Mar 1, 2016 17:03:36 GMT
Viscount Lambert Bilston xxxx Ex Viscount Potters Bar xxxxxx
My GP death fork Bilston 2777 EO My Pro Potters Bar 109383 with someone's initials (WPJ RL) stamped crudely. 1978/1979 My Team 177432 thats a 1981 ish lugged.
Ray
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 1, 2016 20:24:38 GMT
Viscount Lambert Bilston xxxx Ex Viscount Potters Bar xxxxxx Excellent! Cheers Jim
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Post by kickstandman on Mar 18, 2016 20:04:28 GMT
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Post by Admin on Mar 20, 2016 14:31:28 GMT
Just taken the frame number off the bottom of the Grand Prix (later model, lugged) and it is 34702 (but it does have a mark before the 3 but it's not a number, just like a square blob, that could be damage or a deliberate mark)
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mij
Viscount
Posts: 6
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Post by mij on May 23, 2016 7:41:43 GMT
My two bits:
Lugless Viscount frame. No forks FrameNo. 6 23092 under threadless bottom bracket, stick-on silver viscount decals on down tube viscount shield on head tube and repeated on seat tube.
Viscount Tony Doyle. Replacement Forks.Can't find a frame number anywhere. Frame has been refinished three times that I know of but, I do remember the original finish including the Tony Doyle sig on the top tube Shimano Tourney hardware, red plastic saddle and HUGE round rear reflector.
Hope that is useful.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on May 23, 2016 18:20:21 GMT
My two bits: Lugless Viscount frame. No forks FrameNo. 6 23092 under threadless bottom bracket, stick-on silver viscount decals on down tube viscount shield on head tube and repeated on seat tube. Viscount Tony Doyle. Replacement Forks.Can't find a frame number anywhere. Frame has been refinished three times that I know of but, I do remember the original finish including the Tony Doyle sig on the top tube Shimano Tourney hardware, red plastic saddle and HUGE round rear reflector. Hope that is useful. Thank you Jim - all of this could be helpful to others, and we might yet crack the fame number 'code' if there is any logic to it.
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Post by sprockit on May 23, 2016 21:43:45 GMT
Mij,
Frame number on the Tony Doyle is likely to be on the outside of the rear left dropout.
That's the location on my Sprints and Team '82.
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mij
Viscount
Posts: 6
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Post by mij on May 24, 2016 7:03:57 GMT
Re: frame No Tony Doyle.
I distinctly remember the frame number stamped across the underside of the bottom bracket from when GF bought the bike.
Bike was stolen in Norwich when my niece had it but quickly recovered. Perhaps the 'tealeaf' removed 'evidence. Memory is defective here.
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Post by theluddite on May 24, 2016 9:30:43 GMT
Hi
My 1978 lugless Aerospace Sport has frame number 104981, stamped under the bottom bracket.
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Post by sprockit on May 24, 2016 20:17:22 GMT
Some of the lugged frames were built in Taiwan, and a few in Italy, and if I remember correctly, Busaste wrote that some of the Taiwan-built frames were used on the Tulsa models, which were then re-imported into the UK.
My Sprints and Team '82 have numbers in the range 193xxx to 195xxx, stamped on the rear dropout, whilst my Metro 3 has the number 175xxx which is, I think, stamped under the bottom bracket. My 5-speed Sport, however, has the number 336xxx stamped under the bottom bracket.
The Team '82, one of the Sprints and the Sport have what I regard as late era graphics, whereas the 5-speed Sprint has, in my view, graphics from the late 1970s, but the frame number is in the same sequence as the other Sprint and the Team '82.
My thinking is that the frame of the Sport with it's out-of-sequence 336xxx number, may well have been built in a different factory/location and/or time to the others. The logic of it is that the Potters Bar factory would produce frames up to 250000, and A N Other producer 300001 upwards, so there would be no overlap in the numbers.
I stress that I'm only guessing about the last point, but I have known massively different numbers where the same printing press has been built in two separate factories.
This is where Viscount bikes can be such an enigma, with seemingly different era graphics on same-sequence-numbered frames, different components fitted on the same model, same model sometimes having fully painted and sometimes half-chromed forks, etc., etc.
Knowing that Viscount had parts supply issues, I can imagine that as they went downhill they would throw old transfers and non-model-specific parts on frames simply to get completed bikes out through the door and on sale to the public, hence the difficulty identifying the different models.
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Post by velocipete on May 25, 2016 6:31:25 GMT
My Sport has serial number;- 064185 JK stamped under the bottom bracket. Cheers, Pete.
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Post by 54roadie on May 31, 2016 21:45:18 GMT
I have three Viscount frames at the moment, all Aerospace, all alleged to be from "the 70's." Pro, Silver / Blue, 544195, Pro, Silver / Black, 533953, Gran Prix, White / Red, 012143, with an odd stamp farther to the right. Sorry, folks, I have not yet been able to take a clearer picture, but as you see here, the mark on the right is hard to make out.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on Jun 5, 2016 8:55:46 GMT
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Post by triitout on Jun 5, 2016 15:48:22 GMT
Simply the coolest!
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Post by velocipete on Jun 5, 2016 17:01:43 GMT
Looking very fine Jem. Cheers, Pete.
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Post by triitout on Jun 5, 2016 20:55:42 GMT
Picked up another Gran Touring in blue last week in my size this time. Very original from Craig's list, Maryland. Inexpensive and almost all original, so I couldn't pass it up and was able to turn it into a nice weekend in the Washington, DC area. Very robust old bicycle presence there with lots of bike routes and dedicated trails.
Now for the interesting serial#: 591464
My yellow Gran Touring serial# is 591520 so these two frames were probably fabricated within days of each other differing by only 56.
Very nerdy but cool nonetheless!
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