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Post by brianbutler on May 20, 2023 12:17:54 GMT
There are currently a number of Viscounts available around here:
Here is my favorite: It says 60cm frame but I don't think so. What do you say?
Brian
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Post by triitout on May 20, 2023 23:18:47 GMT
Brian, looks like what Viscount calls "23 1/2" size. I need to check if the Dover, NH bike is still available. I'm shrinking and I may need the 22 1'2" frame one day!
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Post by brianbutler on May 20, 2023 23:39:46 GMT
Yes, I guess 23 1/2 is almost 60cm. I have Lambert Pro and a Viscount GP frames that are bigger than that. Did they make a 24 1/2 size?
That Dover Gran Prix has been listed for a long time. I keep thinking I'll pick it up for you (or me if you don't want it) but Dover, NH is just never on my itinerary.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on May 21, 2023 0:00:34 GMT
Did the Lambert’s and Viscount’s come in 1 inch intervals? Are we talking center of bottom bracket to top of top tube or to top of seat tube cutoff. I have a three Aerospace frames that are roughly 22 c-tt and 22 1/2 c-st cutoff. That one pictured looks larger. I also once had a badly rusted Aerospace frame that was comparable to a 25 inch frame. I assume that Viscounts, like Schwinns were spec’d in inches. The pseudo-Supa is 21 / 21 1/2. Mrs. W’s Lambert would be a 19 or 19 1/2 and a lugged frame.
Best,
John “wheelson”
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Post by triitout on May 21, 2023 0:11:48 GMT
Yes, I guess 23 1/2 is almost 60cm. I have Lambert Pro and a Viscount GP frames that are bigger than that. Did they make a 24 1/2 size? That Dover Gran Prix has been listed for a long time. I keep thinking I'll pick it up for you (or me if you don't want it) but Dover, NH is just never on my itinerary. Brian My first Viscount purchase in 1976 was 24 1/2". I didn't listen when the dealer suggested the 23 1/12". It still works even though I'm down from 6'0 to 5'10". One day I suppose I won't have any more room to drop the seat post. I'm in trouble if the 23 1/2" size gets too tall! I don't see the Dover bike on my facebook marketplace but I just messaged the seller out of curiosity. Only you guys could appreciate a 2+ year pursuit of a $45 bike. |
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Post by triitout on May 21, 2023 0:19:04 GMT
Did the Lambert’s and Viscount’s come in 1 inch intervals? Are we talking center of bottom bracket to top of top tube or to top of seat tube cutoff. I have a three Aerospace frames that are roughly 22 c-tt and 22 1/2 c-st cutoff. That one pictured looks larger. I also once had a badly rusted Aerospace frame that was comparable to a 25 inch frame. I assume that Viscounts, like Schwinns were spec’d in inches. The pseudo-Supa is 21 / 21 1/2. Mrs. W’s Lambert would be a 19 or 19 1/2 and a lugged frame. Best, John “wheelson” John, they measure c-tt as per the original owners manual. 19 1/2" - 24 1/2" in one inch increments. I've become good at figuring the size by eyeballing the head badge on the head tube as a reference point. Trying to get a frame size from some sellers is just an adventure in misinformation. If I've got a good photo, I've yet to be wrong! |
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Post by wheelson on May 21, 2023 1:04:48 GMT
Did the Lambert’s and Viscount’s come in 1 inch intervals? Are we talking center of bottom bracket to top of top tube or to top of seat tube cutoff. I have a three Aerospace frames that are roughly 22 c-tt and 22 1/2 c-st cutoff. That one pictured looks larger. I also once had a badly rusted Aerospace frame that was comparable to a 25 inch frame. I assume that Viscounts, like Schwinns were spec’d in inches. The pseudo-Supa is 21 / 21 1/2. Mrs. W’s Lambert would be a 19 or 19 1/2 and a lugged frame. Best, John “wheelson” John, they measure c-tt as per the original owners manual. 19 1/2" - 24 1/2" in one inch increments. I've become good at figuring the size by eyeballing the head badge on the head tube as a reference point. Trying to get a frame size from some sellers is just an adventure in misinformation. If I've got a good photo, I've yet to be wrong! I know what you mean, if you’re familiar with the head badge size for a reference, it’s possible to outguess a seller’s lack of knowledge or indifference. All in all, that silver with blue Aerospace is a knockout. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by brianbutler on May 21, 2023 11:28:13 GMT
I can usually tell the size of a frame by looking at a profile photo of the head tube. Probably the thickness of the tubes provides scale. I majored in geology and every photo of a rock outcrop includes a pencil for scale. My problem is that I have had 23" frames and 56cm frames that both fit quite well so I consider them equal, but 23" is over 58cm, and 56cm is almost exactly 22". All of my currently roadworthy Viscounts have 21-1/2" frames, which also fit quite well. I am over 6' tall but it seems 2/3 is from the waist up. Something about my Raleigh Competition is strange. It is 21-1/2" but feels much smaller, which I did not notice until the project was complete and I tried to test ride it. I ran out of seat post and stem and still couldn't make it work. I was not able to sell it so I might give it another try. In many ways it is my best bike.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on May 21, 2023 13:47:24 GMT
I can usually tell the size of a frame by looking at a profile photo of the head tube. Probably the thickness of the tubes provides scale. I majored in geology and every photo of a rock outcrop includes a pencil for scale. My problem is that I have had 23" frames and 56cm frames that both fit quite well so I consider them equal, but 23" is over 58cm, and 56cm is almost exactly 22". All of my currently roadworthy Viscounts have 21-1/2" frames, which also fit quite well. I am over 6' tall but it seems 2/3 is from the waist up. Something about my Raleigh Competition is strange. It is 21-1/2" but feels much smaller, which I did not notice until the project was complete and I tried to test ride it. I ran out of seat post and stem and still couldn't make it work. I was not able to sell it so I might give it another try. In many ways it is my best bike.
Brian
This makes me realize how I need to fully document all my bikes and frames, not only measurements but all conceivable variations. This would probably explain why some just seem to “fit” when superficially they’re identical. I’m sure this would be of great help when I’m ready to pass them on (or when I pass on!). Being a (retired) engineer, I’m somewhat ashamed that I haven’t done this already. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 21, 2023 16:07:16 GMT
Frame size! Talk about a can of worms! I agree with Brian in that I first look at the head tube when guessing a frame size; tubing diameter can throw off my guess. The frame in question looks to me to be the next size up from my 21.5" CC Viscount.
The current question in this thread seems to be what size fits me, or how I pick a frame size. What do I do; let us start with stand over height. On bikes with horizontal top tubes, stand over height varies with BB height, tire size and seat tube angle. This can be difficult to calculate but it may be mentioned in old brochures and road tests; this gets even more difficult with the new-fangled angled top tubes. As for me (since saddle height is adjustable) the bike simply must clear my private parts; trust me, this is important. I prefer my saddle height to be 87-88 cm which varies by saddle.
More difficult is the top tube. Once the saddle is adjusted to the correct height (another controversy) I like 72-73 cm from the center of the handlebars and my sit bones. This naturally is adjustable with stem length (if I have the right stem). In my old age, I like my handle bars to be about the height of the saddle, sometimes liking a little higher, and sometimes a little lower which varies (on a given day) by the condition of my neck or back. This often requires a taller stem (at least on smaller frames.
With all that in mind, at 5"10" and a little longer legged than most, what frame sizes do I ride? In centimeters, 58 CC or 60 CT is the largest frame I ride. 54CC or 56 CT is the smallest; I do not go smaller as the required very long stem would place my weight too far forward.
My Viscount is 21.5" or just under 55cm CC, 60cm CT, I suspect it is what Viscount called a 23.5" as that is about 60cm.
One of my three 58 CC bikes; the French tubing makes it look tall for its size (more like a 60 CC with standard tubing).
Cheers Jim
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Post by wheelson on May 21, 2023 23:57:38 GMT
Thanks, Jim. I agree that stand over clearance is a must, and I was taught the importance of this in my first job in a Schwinn shop back in 1966. There are those, of course, that disagree.
I’m about 5’ 10” but with a 31” inseam. That is one reason I like classic bikes: many have longer top tubes. So my 56cm Austro Daimler Vent Noir ll works very well for me. My Paramount and the Viscounts feel good too, though I haven’t documented the dimensions as I should. Ideally, the “sweet spot” should give a pretty good indication if an advertised bike would work.
Best,
John “wheelson”
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Post by triitout on May 22, 2023 0:39:02 GMT
It's amazing how little seat post the great Beryl Burton showed. It obviously worked for her. There's been such a change over the years to fit you on a smaller frame with a more aggressive drop. www.velouk.net/2020/06/11/feature-interview-william-fotheringham/I've found the most critical measurement for me (29") is the top of the saddle to the center of the crank bolt and 170mm cranks. I ride in the same Asics DS trainer sneakers which are pretty thin. Everything from 56-58-60 is workable. I'm down to 5'10 with a 33" inseam so more legs than torso. I've found a range within an inch works fine for top tube/stem length and drop. My body doesn't seem to mind those variations but I quickly feel when I'm too high or low in the saddle. Old school fit calculators would alway put me on a 58 c-c for everything but time trialing. That's pretty much in line with the Viscount 23 1/2" c-t. |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 22, 2023 4:30:04 GMT
I forgot to mention that I measure my saddle height from the top of the pedal axle while the crank is at its maximum extension and inline with the seat tube. This is the way I was taught in the 1960s, but not everyone uses this method. Pedal type, shoe type and cleat type create a bit of variation. I really do not care for the looks of new bikes with sloping top tubes and very tall seat posts. The one in the picture looks OK but to my old traditional eye, extreme examples look sort of BMX like. Cheers Jim  Saddle Height Measurement by Jim_Gude, on Flickr |
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,418 
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Post by Jem on May 22, 2023 6:56:01 GMT
That photo is a amazing. As you say, it worked for her. This discussion about frame size is very interesting. Reading it with interest |
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,418
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Post by Jem on May 22, 2023 6:58:22 GMT
I struggle to 'understand' that trend too. But is seems to be most common set up for modern riders. |
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