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Post by dracco on Jun 27, 2022 9:24:55 GMT
A shame that they can't spell "SulphUr" (or for the US market, "SulfUr"), or "yIEld" correctly.
Do we think that this is an accurate representation of the original decal (i.e. is it Lambert's fault) or is it simply that someone at Velocals can't spell?
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jun 27, 2022 17:38:20 GMT
I contacted Velocals and their response follows-
"Hi Jim,
Thank you so much for submitting the review.
I see possibly two incorrectly spelled words.
Yeild and Sulpher, Did you see any others?
I did some research and found that Sulphur might be wrong too, Some are saying it is "silver"?
Do you by chance have the original decal? Would you be able to confirm?
Thanks again.
Best Regards, Tommy Anderson"
Since Sulfur is an impurity, I doubt Lambert would have it on their sticker. Can any of you confirm any of this? Anyone have an original sticker?
Cheers Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 27, 2022 20:12:47 GMT
I had one of the originals, which I heat-removed from a Lambert Pro. I think it was damaged and I discarded it. However, if Wheelson still has the Little Lambert, it has the same sticker and maybe he will resolve this. I took a few photos of it before shipping it to him. In one photo, I can see the sticker, which does have the word Sulph.. I can't make out the important last two letters but they are definitely talking about sulphur, contaminant or not.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 27, 2022 20:16:12 GMT
Maybe they got mixed up and added sulphur instead of silver to create the death fork. Regardless, we now have the brimstone frame.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jun 27, 2022 21:06:00 GMT
I had one of the originals, which I heat-removed from a Lambert Pro. I think it was damaged and I discarded it. However, if Wheelson still has the Little Lambert, it has the same sticker and maybe he will resolve this. I took a few photos of it before shipping it to him. In one photo, I can see the sticker, which does have the word Sulph.. I can't make out the important last two letters but they are definitely talking about sulphur, contaminant or not. Brian I’ll gladly check the decals on said Little Lambert as no progress has been made on that one. It will be the end of the week, though. Pretty sure I don’t have any closeups on my cell. Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by wheelson on Jul 5, 2022 16:40:14 GMT
I had one of the originals, which I heat-removed from a Lambert Pro. I think it was damaged and I discarded it. However, if Wheelson still has the Little Lambert, it has the same sticker and maybe he will resolve this. I took a few photos of it before shipping it to him. In one photo, I can see the sticker, which does have the word Sulph.. I can't make out the important last two letters but they are definitely talking about sulphur, contaminant or not. Brian I’ll gladly check the decals on said Little Lambert as no progress has been made on that one. It will be the end of the week, though. Pretty sure I don’t have any closeups on my cell. Best, John “wheelson” So I did a quick check of the decal on the little Lambert. I tried to photograph the decal without much success, as it wraps totally around the tube. I can verify that sulphur is on the decal. And big news, the word “yield” is NOT misspelled. For those not familiar with this frameset, it’s an early Lambert (lugged) Grand Prix Professional, with the Bob Thom - Reg Harris - Ian Steel stickers. Those stickers are pretty well trashed and I would really love to find replacements. Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by brianbutler on Dec 3, 2022 20:16:35 GMT
I wonder what they would take for the remaining Viscount/Lambert stock. I won't ask them for fear I would end up making a successful offer.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Dec 3, 2022 20:20:14 GMT
It might be sensible to figure out how to make decals using available software and printers. At least it would be fun to investigate. Unfortunately I suspect is involves some significant artistic skill.
Brian
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on Dec 3, 2022 20:39:05 GMT
I wonder what they would take for the remaining Viscount/Lambert stock. I won't ask them for fear I would end up making a successful offer. Brian That sounds like a good idea Brain, what else are they going to do with them if they are closing down? I would, but the shipping from US to UK these days is so expensive, even for lightweight flat items like this. You could probably recoup some of the outlay by reselling a few on here? Or on the other hand, you might have a box full of Viscount/Lambert decals sitting on your shelf that you can't give away
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Post by 54roadie on Dec 10, 2022 6:45:25 GMT
Years ago I looked up those UK and US military specs. They described a heat treatment to the chrome-moly tubing that gained the listed strength. Of course it was 03:00 and I never bookmarked the web page. Can't find it now. But, if true, it helps explain why these bikes ride so well while being so light compared to anything else in the day.
This might be the first instance of heat treated chrome-moly used in bicycles. I never heard of tubes being treated until sometime in the mid 80s, and that was True Temper. I have no idea if Reynolds, Columbus, Vitus or Falck heat treated any of their bike tubes.
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Post by brianbutler on Dec 10, 2022 12:28:24 GMT
Years ago I looked up those UK and US military specs. They described a heat treatment to the chrome-moly tubing that gained the listed strength. Of course it was 03:00 and I never bookmarked the web page. Can't find it now. But, if true, it helps explain why these bikes ride so well while being so light compared to anything else in the day. This might be the first instance of heat treated chrome-moly used in bicycles. I never heard of tubes being treated until sometime in the mid 80s, and that was True Temper. I have no idea if Reynolds, Columbus, Vitus or Falck heat treated any of their bike tubes. Thanks, that's very interesting. I'll try to find out more about it.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Dec 10, 2022 15:22:22 GMT
Interesting thread. From what I’ve read the first Lamberts appeared in 1972, with the lug-less frames in 1973-74? For comparison, The highly touted Reynolds 753 heat treated tubes were introduced in 1976 with Hinault winning the 1978 TDF on a 753 Gitane. Reynolds required an approved test sample from builders, and silver brazing so it was apparently a rather touchy task. So if Lambert had a heat treated aerospace tube set in 1972, they were truly innovative. And that could certainly account for the light weight and great ride. Disclosure: I’m a retired electrical/electronics engineer but spent half my career in an engineering mechanics test lab. Should have gone mechanical instead of electrical, as those years were the most fun, other than the bike shop thing! Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Dec 10, 2022 19:09:44 GMT
Steel is complex. My experience with my heat treated Viscount has given me confidence to build a Reynolds 753 bike. Both have heat treated steel.
Below is what research I have (from multiple sources) on Reynolds and Columbus steel tubing; it may be a bit much.
Cheers Jim
Reynolds Steel Tubing • 453 - Iron/ Manganese/Titanium alloy. Reynolds produced only the 3 main tubes in this alloy and they were single butted. • 500 - A chromium-molybdenum (CrMo) steel, seamed, plain gauge tubeset of 3 main triangle tubes. • 500ATB - Mountain, All terrain, Off road • 500 Magnum - Same use as ATB • 501 - Reynolds 501 was a chromium-molybdenum (CrMo) steel, seamed, butted 3-tubes tubeset that made its debut about 1983 and was available in two different thicknesses. 501ATB - Mountain, All terrain, Off road • 501 Magnum - Same use as ATB • 501SB - Single Butted • 501SL - Special lightweight (SL) tubeset • 520 - Cold worked Chromoly. UTS: 700-900 MPa, density 7.78 g/cm3 8 tube set • 525 - Cold worked Chromoly. UTS: 700-900 MPa, density 7.78 g/cm3 8 tube set 525Triathlon - Designed for Triathlon framesets • 531 - Manganese/Molybdenum. UTS: 700-900 MPa (48-58 Tsi, 100-130 ksi) 531ATB - Designed for Mountain, All terrain, Off road • 531C - Competition Racing tubeset. Road racing, track, time trial and cyclo-cross. • 531CS - Club Sport Double butted main tubes • 531Magnum - Same use as ATB • 531OS - Oversize tubeset • 531 Professional - Superseded 531SL, for road racing and time trials. Comprises 531 lightweight main tubes and 753R rear stays. Early versions used 753T rear stays. • 531SL - Special lightweight (SL) tubeset, comprising 531 main tubes drawn thinner than standard 531, and stiff 531 rear stays • 531 Speed Stream - 531SL Oval shaped aerodynamic tube • 531ST - Special Touring tubeset[6] • 531 Super Tourist - Superseded ST. • 531DS Designer select tubing, typically an oversize down tube and seat tube for larger frames, tubing from the mtb tubeset. • 631 - Seamless air-hardened. UTS: 800-900 MPa, density 7.78 g/cm3 631OS - Oversize tubeset • 653 - Was a mixed tubeset which superseded 531 Professional and combined tubings of different steels; made up of 753 rear stays with 531 light weight main tubes and 531 forks • 708 - 708 was a tube set in Reynolds' range in the 1980s. It has main tubes with special section. These were not butted, but had 8 flats running along the length of the tube. The rear stays would be 753. • 725 - Heat-Treated Chromoly the same basic alloy as Reynolds 520, but with characteristics like 753. UTS: 1080-1280 MPa, density 7.78 g/cm3 725OS - Oversize tubeset • 731 - Need information 731OS - Oversize tubeset • 753 - Heat-Treated Manganese-Molybdenum. The most exclusive tube set from Reynolds. Essentially 531 made with reduced wall thickness and heat treated to increase tensile strength. UTS: 1080-1280 MPa (70-83 Tsi, 157-186 ksi) Complete tube set of 11 tubes (Frame 8, Fork 3). 753 can only be lugged and fillet-brazed with an alloy of 56% silver below 700 degrees Celsius and sale is restricted only to approved builders certified by Reynolds 753ATB - Mountain, All terrain, Off road • 753R - Road tubeset • 753T - Track tubeset, thinner tubes for track use • 753OS - Oversize tubeset • 853 - Seamless air-hardening heat-treated. UTS: 1250-1400 MPa, density 7.78 g/cm3 853OS - Oversize tubeset • 921 - Cold-work stainless steel • 931 - Precipitation hardening stainless steel. Tubing introduced in 2012. Can be used with 953 to reduce overall frame costs. • 953 - Maraging stainless steel. Introduced in 2005. UTS: 1750-2050 MPa, density 7.8 g/cm3
* A reference shows (based on average weight - whatever that means), Reynolds 501 is 225 grams heavier than 531C, 325 grams heavier than 531P, 375 grams heavier than 753, and 95 grams heavier than SL.
Columbus Steel Tubing
• Aelle - A straight-guage (non-butted) manganese alloy tubeset for amateur and touring cyclists, built of cold-drawn, microalloyed-steel thin-wall tubing which makes it especially lightweight. CMn Steel – Weight: 2345 • SL - Used by a majority of the Italian bike industry during the late 1970s and early 1980s. All-purpose, high-performance tube set for road races over even terrain. Double-butted tubes and cold-rolled fork blades. Cyclex Steel – Weight: 1925 g. SL down tube was drawn and butted to .9/.6/.9 mm. • SP - Heavy-duty, high-performance tubeset especially recommended for large frames. Double-butted tubing with cold-rolled fork blades. Cyclex Steel – Weight: 2215 g • SP down tube was drawn and butted 1.0/.7/1.0 mm • SLX - Released in the early 1980s as the pinnacle of Columbus tubing, SLX was a “Superbutted” tube set specially designed for professional cyclists. It featured five internal spirals for greater rigidity, but the spirals are found in the joint area only. Double-butted tube ends. Cyclex Steel – Weight: 1966 g • SPX - “Superbutted” tube set with increased thickness for professional cyclists. Ideal for larqe frames. Double-butted tube ends. Same five-spiral butting as the SLX. Cyclex Steel – Weight: 2325 g • Tenax - Possibly a tubeset of SP or SL, labelled as Tenax and used by Schwinn in the mid-80s. There are also reports that Tenax was rebadged Cromor. • AIR - 1980. Columbus Air was the Italian manufacturer’s initial attempt at an aerodynamic tubeset. The initial version used a teardrop shaped down tube, seat tube and seat stays in conjunction with an oval top tube and chain stays, and a round head tube. Later versions had teardrop shaped chain stays. The tubeset was designed primarily for time trials and aerodynamic efficiency and therefore it is not practical to compare it directly to other round Columbus tubesets. Due to the teardrop shapes the resulting frames weighed more than SL, but had less strength. The rear triangles in particular had a reputation for being whippy, due to the thin seat stays. However, this was considered acceptable given the intended TT use and aerodynamic advantages. Of particular note, the seat tube came in two versions. One with a standard round top end, to accept a normal seat post and another which carried the teardrop section right to the top, requiring a teardrop section seatpost. If you have the latter, you may have some difficulty finding a seatpost, unless it is provided with the frame. Most frames built with this tubing were outfitted with Shimano Dura Ace AX, or less likely, 600AX. • TSX - Released in 1986, TSX was made of Cyclex Cromo Steel and is lighter than the SLX tubeset, even though all the main tubes used internal helicoidal reinforcements through the entire tube. TSX was made for professional use, coupling maximum performance with reduced weight. It is particularly suitable for stage races of more than 150 Km over mixed terrain, because the full-length internal reinforcements give greater rigidity against tube flexing and torsion. Cyclex Steel – Weight: 1945 g • SLX - Used in the last Merckx Corsa Extra frames, 95-98. Many reports that it’s the same as PRX. • PRX - Rare tubeset from Cyclex steel.’Elica Continua’ translated as ‘Continuous Helix’ but some reports have the internal reinforcements as ribs and not spirals. There are suggestions that the PR designation is for Paris-Roubaix. Heavier than SLX by 300g, reported to be suited to heavier riders or punishing races. • MAX - Starting in 1987, MAX was the tubeset for special racing bikes, drawn from the exclusive Nivacrom® steel which gave exceptional strength characteristics. Lightened by avoiding the internal helicoidal reinforcements of other Columbus tubing, the elliptical cross-sections are oriented in opposition to the highest active and passive stresses. This tubeset was designed to optimize efficiency under the demands of extreme loads: sprint, time trials, climbing and strong centrifugal acceleration when descending. Weight: 1900 g Merckx used a variant of the MAX tube set for their MX-Leader frameset, known as MXL. It used a smaller diameter top tube, reportedly because Eddy didn’t like the look of the oversize tube! • MAX OR - Exclusively designed for the toughest off-road races. The oversized oriented elliptical cross-sections have thicknesses of as little as 0.5-0.6 mm, thanks to the exceptional characteristics of the exclusive Nivacrom® steel.The oversized unicrown fork blades are cold-rolled for greater elastic strength and resilience. Weight: 2180 g • EL - Tubeset for time trials over even terrain, climbs and triathlon events. Super-lightweight thanks to the reduced thickness of Nivacrom steel tubing, yet with a very high yield point. Double-butted tubes and ovalised butted unicrown fork blades. Weight: 1670
• GENIUS - In 1991 Columbus introduced some Differential Butted Shape butts (DBS) tubesets in which the shape of the butt actually follows the area of the tube where most of the stress is. GENIUS was the first of them. The butted ends on GENIUS are shorter, so the whole set was the first one strictly designed for TiG welding. A wide selection of tube thicknesses and diameters allowed GENIUS tubing to be used in many different types of frame types. Nivacrom® steel. • MEGATUBE - In 1994, to celebrate 110 years of Bianchi, Columbus made MEGATUBE solely for the Treviglio company. They claimed it was the first oversize tube for high-performance, creating strong and light frames. Megatube has become one of the strong points of the Milanese company, with more than 14 different shapes. • CYBER - 1994, specifically for MTB use. • XCr - In cooperation with Trafiltubi and Aubert & Duval, the new Columbus seamless tube set in stainless steel was created. Starting from a specific request of the military industry, Columbus searched for a valid substitute for cadmium plated temper hardening steels, which could no longer be produced because of their highly polluting manufacturing process. A new martensitic stainless steel, with high content of Chromium and Molybdenum and Nickel as alloy elements which increase the mechanical and weldability characteristics, was created. The martensitic main structure contains traces of austenite that reduces the possibility of crack formation especially during the welding process. The great weldability properties of the new XCr stainless steel, together with its high fatigue resistance and its extraordinary geometrical stability at high temperatures, make this material the natural element for welded structures such as bicycle frames. • Thanks to the high stiffness/weight and UTS/weight ratios (better than titanium and aluminium alloys) together with the elevated characteristics of corrosion resistance, it is possible to manufacture triple butted tubes to build extremely light and (virtually) indestructible frames. • Thron - Mid-90’s saw the introduction of Thron. Thron is still popular, and is the immediate predecessor to Brain. It’s just regular Cyclex, the standard Columbus steel for a couple of decades, but has shorter butts, is a little manipulated, and has an OS version. CrMo, butted down to 0.5mm • Brain - Introduced mid-late ’90s, an improvement over Thron and Reynolds 531, so mid-high range • Nemo - 1996: NEMO, of Nivacrom, basically similar to EL-OS, but differentially butted, rather than symmetrically, the butted sections are shorter, and with a slightly thinner tube section at the ends. the most sophisticated expression of cycling engineering: from a study on stress applied to the frame, produced using a portable recording system and with the subsequent FEM calculation (Finished Elements Measurement) the map of stresses in the frame and the ZBC technology (Zone Butted Concept) emerged. Reinforcements were located and adjusted to the actual work load. • Thermacrom - 1999: Columbus introduces THERMACROM the most innovative cycling purposed steel: It gives incredible lightness and the most durable, high performance mechanical characteristics. • Zona - (0.7-0.5-0.7). In order to offer a tubing only 0.7mm at the butt, Columbus developed a reduced price Nivacrome that is 1000 Newtons/square meter tensile strength. This compares to the 900 used in Brain OS (and old SLX) and 1200 used in EL-OS, Genius, and Torelli/Nemo 747. • Spirit - 2004: Columbus introduces Spirit. Steel is coming back in the cycling field with this innovative, high performance tube-set. • Neuron - Neuron (0.7-0.5-0.7). This is a very sophisticated tubing, much finer that one would guess from the 0.5mm wall thickness. Columbus pulled out almost all the stops to make a lightweight 0.5mm tubing, using zone butting, elliptical butting, the works. The result is a tubing that is lightweight, yet very stiff. Mondonico continues to offer frames made of Neuron because it makes a good, stiff, light frame. This tubing still has a very devoted following among serious steel frame lovers. • EL OS - (0.7-0.4-0.7). These sophisticated tubes are comparable to Torelli/Nemo 747 in the front triangle. They exceed Torelli/Nemo specification in the rear triangle. These tubesets have double-butted chainstays that are drawn down to 0.4mm. The longer traditional butts of EL-OS offer some performance advantages. The slightly greater mass at the head tube joints make the front end of the frame a bit more stable, or as one Italian said, “robust”. Drawing on the experience with the EL set in the toughest professional competitions, this set features tubes of comparable lightness but with increased diameters for greater rigidity thanks to the use of the exclusive Nivacrom Steel – Weight: 1800 g • Gara - Road set especially suited for amateur and touring cyclists who demand stout, lightweight racing frames. CrMo Steel – Weight: 2300 g • Zeta - The cheapest tubeset that Columbus produced in the late 70s/early 80s. Straight gauge tubing like Aelle but not the same, Zeta was 0.9mm in thickness and Aelle 0.8mm. Carbon-manganese steel. • Niva OR - Tubeset for off-road competitions and high-performance riding. It combines the excellent performance of Nivacrom steel with the traditional diameters. Weight: 2220 g • Niva OR OS - Oversized, round-section tubing for maximum off-road performance. The butted tubes are Nivacrom® steel, which has made it possible to increase diameter while reducing thickness, and hence weight. These features, and in particular the oversized tube cross-sections, ensure excellent rigidity and good handling over rugged terrain, making this set idea for competitions. Nivacrom Steel – Weight: 2000 g • GPX - The GPX tubeset was produced in a limited number in 1995, exclusively for Pinarello. Super double butted, reinforced tubes of Cylex Steel. • Cromor - Late 90s. Columbus Matrix was the first name for Colombus Cromor; Matrix became Cromor when Trek asserted their right to the Matrix name. Cold-drawn, chrome-moly butted tubing, this set is for the more demanding riders who favor versatile, high-performance light frames, but can also be used for larger frames. Cr Mo Steel – Weight: 2190 g • Chromor OR - Set for off-road experts who want to take on any terrain, regardless of difficulty, enjoying the maximum safety and dependability of an indestructible vehicle.The cold-drawn, chrome-moly tubing has butted ends. The butted unicrown fork blades have increased thickness in the weld areas. CrMo Steel • Weight: 2495 g • Chromor OR OS - Chrome-moly set specially designed for the most demanding mountain-bike enthusiasts. Oversized tube diameters give the frame excellent rigidity and stability, offering both pro and amateur cyclists a good measure of safety coupled with the characteristic lightness of Columbus butted tubing. CrMo Steel – Weight: 2580 g • Strada - Custom tube set for Eddy Merckx. CrMo. • Tandem CM - Superbutted tube set for track use or demanding amateurs. Same five-spiral butting as the SLX. Cyclex Steel. • Tandem CR - Butted set for light touring tandems. Designed for carrying touring equipment. • Altain, Tecnos, Super - 91, Endurance, SSP, MX, Aelle OR, Ego, MS, MINIMAX, GPX, SLPX, others.
Common tube diameters • Standard – 1″ top, 1-1/8″ seat and down tubes, 14mm seat stays, 22.2mm chainstays. Common tube sets include Columbus SL, SP, SLX, TSX, SPX, EL, Neuron; Reynolds 531, 753, 853; Dedacciai ZeroUno, ZeroTre; True Temper Versus, Versus HT, Platinum • Oversize – 1-1/8″ top and seat tube, 1-1/4″ down tube, 16mm seat stays, 24mm ovalized chain stays. Columbus EL OS, Neuron, Nemo, Foco, Brain, Thorn, Zona; Reynolds 853, 725; Dedacciai Zero, ZeroUno, ZeroTre; True Temper Platinum, Versus, Versus HT • Super Oversize – anything larger than OS. Columbus Foco, Zona, Sprit; Reynolds 853; Dedacciai Zero, EOM16.5; True Temper Platinum, S3
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Post by wheelson on Dec 10, 2022 20:29:37 GMT
Nice listing, Jim. Besides the Viscounts, I have frames in Reynolds 531, Columbus SP, several grades of Tange, and Ishiwata, some unknown. Other than the Viscounts, my best riding bike is my ‘74 Schwinn Paramount with 531. Also perhaps an interesting observation is one of the photos I found on line of the early gold plated Lambert clearly shows a Reynolds stamp on the inside right chain stay near the bottom bracket junction. I’m not quite sure how that squares with the Lambert decal. Comments? Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by brianbutler on Dec 11, 2022 0:45:32 GMT
Maybe the Lambert main tubes were "aerospace metal" and the stays were Reynolds 531. I'm frequently amazed at how bike makers cobbled their products together.
Brian
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