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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 13, 2021 23:46:34 GMT
In the Monkey Safety Video thread, I mentioned that John's comments started me looking at Schwinns. Well I went nuts and bought a Paramount P13 frame (from the original owner). It was cheap enough (for a Paramount) as it needs to be refinished and it has a couple of rusty spots to fix; it did come with the original manual and sales tag. Hopefully I won't find a major problem and end up with a wall decoration. I suppose John will think better of me for having a Schwinn in the herd. Nevertheless, it is all John's fault  . The hard part is having added one, another must go.
Ride Safe Jim
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Post by wheelson on May 14, 2021 1:21:49 GMT
Jim, you're already at the top of the mountain, Paramount or no (pun?). I accept responsibility for getting you hooked, looks like you have a fine and worthy candidate for restoration. Did you get the fork as well? You have the P13 racing model (no eyelets on the dropouts). My '74 frame was a P15 so I built it up as a light tourer with the triple Campy crankset, converted the NR derailleur to a long cage using the Rally cage (mine would have used the Schwinn-branded Shimano Crane), but I still used Campy sidepull brakes (instead of Weinmann or DiaCompe centerpulls). I also used the large flange Campy hubs built to Weinmann dimpled 27 inch rims. Every time I ride it I get a smile on my face. I haven't ridden it as much lately though, since those dastardly Viscounts captured my fancy.
Best of luck with your restoration, please keep us posted.
Best,
John "w"
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 14, 2021 2:01:50 GMT
Yep, it came with the fork. I plan to build it with Campy NR drive train. I have some long cages for the NR derailleur and triplizer for the front. The same setup I use on my Bertoni. I will be on the lookout for some brakes. Best Jim  Bertoni Drive by Jim_Gude, on Flickr |
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Post by brianbutler on May 14, 2021 2:11:37 GMT
Nice acquisition, Jim. Now if I can find a 23" Superior I might [re]join the Schwinn club. I like those fillet brazed frames.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on May 15, 2021 18:23:33 GMT
Nice acquisition, Jim. Now if I can find a 23" Superior I might [re]join the Schwinn club. I like those fillet brazed frames. Brian Too bad you can’t use a 20 inch C-T, 22 inch C-TT cutoff. I have said frameset gathering dust Best, John “w” |
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Post by wheelson on May 15, 2021 19:09:19 GMT
Nice acquisition, Jim. Now if I can find a 23" Superior I might [re]join the Schwinn club. I like those fillet brazed frames. Brian Too bad you can’t use a 20 inch C-T, 22 inch C-TT cutoff. I have said frameset gathering dust Best, John “w” That’s 20 inch C-TT and 22 inch C-Seat Tube cutoff. So close, yet . . . Best, J “w” |
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Post by brianbutler on May 15, 2021 21:00:21 GMT
My main bike was always a Schwinn from 1979-2003, when I switched to Trek. I almost bought a new 1985 Superior. I think they were orange that year. The dealer didn't have one and I ended up getting a white Super Sport instead. It was a good bike. There was hardly a bad bike made in the mid 80's. My workhorse for the past few years has been a 1984 Fuji del Rey with a triple.
Brian
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Post by franco on May 16, 2021 8:49:07 GMT
Have Schwinn bikes got a following over in the USA like old Raleigh’s etc do over here?
It seems to be the brand most older Americans remember fondly.
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Post by brianbutler on May 16, 2021 11:34:19 GMT
Have Schwinn bikes got a following over in the USA like old Raleigh’s etc do over here? It seems to be the brand most older Americans remember fondly. I think it is a bit different. Raleigh's in the UK were marketed to adults and used as transportation as well as recreation. In the US bikes were primarily toys for kids ever since the development of autos until the 70's bike boom. There were some exceptions, but bikes were never an important means of transportation over here. Schwinn was always aimed at kids except for the Paramount. I realize that statement is not 100% accurate but I think it is pretty close.
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 16, 2021 13:26:45 GMT
Well put Brian. Until the bicycle boom of the 1970s few adults were interested in bicycles; sort of a subculture. Schwinn covered every market, but mainly children's bicycles. They wanted to be an exclusive brand, yet be inclusive in having every kind of bike. A Schwinn bike dealer was limited to Schwinn and Schwinn products. The Schwinn catalogs are a window into American cycling. Schwinn now mostly sells Chinese bikes at department stores. They do have a bike with the Paramount name but the actual continuation of the Paramount is by Waterford bicycles at the Waterford works where the last true Paramounts were made. Americans commonly are ignorant of cycling, either as a sport or as serious transportation. Many still see bicycles as toys for children, that belong on the sidewalk.
Ride Safe Jim
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Post by wheelson on May 16, 2021 15:35:53 GMT
Well put Brian. Until the bicycle boom of the 1970s few adults were interested in bicycles; sort of a subculture. Schwinn covered every market, but mainly children's bicycles. They wanted to be an exclusive brand, yet be inclusive in having every kind of bike. A Schwinn bike dealer was limited to Schwinn and Schwinn products. The Schwinn catalogs are a window into American cycling. Schwinn now mostly sells Chinese bikes at department stores. They do have a bike with the Paramount name but the actual continuation of the Paramount is by Waterford bicycles at the Waterford works where the last true Paramounts were made. Americans commonly are ignorant of cycling, either as a sport or as serious transportation. Many still see bicycles as toys for children, that belong on the sidewalk.
Ride Safe Jim
I mostly agree with Brian and Jim about the American approach to cycling and Schwinn’s part in it. When I started in an old time multi-repair shop and Schwinn dealership in 1966, the full line of Schwinn was sold but we weren’t restricted to just Schwinn. Thankfully so, since Schwinn was the top of the line and a bit pricey in small town North Carolina. During those years (‘66-‘70), pre-mtb and pre-Sting Ray, the “ten speed racing bike” was mostly the Varsity. Fast forward to my post-military stint (‘74-‘79) and the times were changing: energy crisis bike boom, Varsity, Continental, and Super Sports reigned as well as the Sting Ray line. Paramount’s were a non-player in our area. Our shop mechanics were somewhat more into bikes: a college student / NC state junior time trials champion who trained on the hilly roads with a track bike and an assistant college professor who had a really neat racing tandem. I also saw a really neat little touring frameset that had been special ordered from some little startup company in Wisconsin by the name of Trek. About this time, Schwinn decided to go Total Concept and took away our dealershi, the oldest continuously family owned (1896) because the owner refused to give up the locksmith, business machines, and small engine repair. The bike line now became mostly Fuji with a side of various French models. As a side note, the new Schwinn Total Concept across town was gone within two years. For better or worse, Schwinn’s had infiltrated my bike space and remain so till this day. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 16, 2021 16:18:23 GMT
I stand corrected as to Schwinn shops being restricted to Schwinn; that was the impression given to me by our local (Thousand Oaks) Schwinn dealer. The place was beautiful! It occupied a store front in a local upscale shopping center. On one wall they had a long line of ten speeds (light weight bicycles) in the wonderfully bright Schwinn colors. The opposite was was lined with Stingrays, Corvettes and so on. The back wall was shared by accessories and a service desk. I can still smell the fresh bicycle tires. The best bike they stocked was the Superior; it was expensive and a slow mover. Varsities were the hot selling ten speed; they looked (to most folks) just like the higher level bikes and cost much less. Of course every kid in town had a Stingray. They refused to work on my Sears (Puch) bike as they said they were Schwinn exclusive. I felt hurt and thought them snobbish; I learned to do my own work and have ever since. The only other place that worked on ten speeds was a nearby amateur bike racer; he had a small (open only one day a week) repair shop in his detached garage. His little shop was cluttered, smelled of fresh coffee and often had a half eaten sandwich on his workbench. He sold a few used bikes and performed maintenance. He was happiest when teaching young people to work on their bikes; from which he made no money. I hung around and he helped me learn and told stories about the serious cyclist subculture of the time. I suppose he had a great influence.
Ride Safe
Jim
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Post by wheelson on May 16, 2021 16:26:06 GMT
Jim,
Nice story and confirms the failures of the Schwinn Total Concept idea. That part about the guy working from his garage sounds a lot like me, except I'm working by contract out of a local shop, which is much like the old shop at the beginning of career: we work on most everything and the shop tends to be quite messy and looks like it's been there forever instead of 8 years.
Best,
John "w"
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 16, 2021 17:03:30 GMT
I found this article which explains a lot. From what I gather the "Total Concept" theme originated in Southern California. It seems not all Schwinn dealers subscribed to this thinking. I think our local shop was imitating the methods of "Valley Cyclery" a huge Schwinn Dealer in the San Fernando Valley.
Cheers Jim
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Post by franco on May 16, 2021 22:44:45 GMT
Thanks for the reply’s.
It seems there is a huge contrast between both countries, when I was a young lad it seemed every household had at least one bicycle. Usually “dads bike” that he went to work on or used for recreational riding, then the kids bike(s). The lady of the house didn’t seem to bother much though.
Obviously Raleigh was huge here, their turnover was immense and quality control was exceptional. Some excellent alternatives as well like our own Viscount.
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 16, 2021 23:43:58 GMT
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 18, 2021 6:03:29 GMT
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Jem
Viscount
?
Posts: 3,389 
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Post by Jem on May 18, 2021 12:14:16 GMT
I stand corrected as to Schwinn shops being restricted to Schwinn; that was the impression given to me by our local (Thousand Oaks) Schwinn dealer. The place was beautiful! It occupied a store front in a local upscale shopping center. On one wall they had a long line of ten speeds (light weight bicycles) in the wonderfully bright Schwinn colors. The opposite was was lined with Stingrays, Corvettes and so on. The back wall was shared by accessories and a service desk. I can still smell the fresh bicycle tires. The best bike they stocked was the Superior; it was expensive and a slow mover. Varsities were the hot selling ten speed; they looked (to most folks) just like the higher level bikes and cost much less. Of course every kid in town had a Stingray. They refused to work on my Sears (Puch) bike as they said they were Schwinn exclusive. I felt hurt and thought them snobbish; I learned to do my own work and have ever since. The only other place that worked on ten speeds was a nearby amateur bike racer; he had a small (open only one day a week) repair shop in his detached garage. His little shop was cluttered, smelled of fresh coffee and often had a half eaten sandwich on his workbench. He sold a few used bikes and performed maintenance. He was happiest when teaching young people to work on their bikes; from which he made no money. I hung around and he helped me learn and told stories about the serious cyclist subculture of the time. I suppose he had a great influence. Ride Safe Jim Jim, have you ever thought about a side career in writing? I was 100% with you there, very evocative. I'd be first in line for the book! |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 18, 2021 13:47:46 GMT
Thanks for the compliment! I have done some amateurish writing in the past; but only for enjoyment. Anything more is too much like work!
Best Jim
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Post by dracco on May 19, 2021 14:52:42 GMT
"I can still smell the fresh bicycle tires."
That's it isn't it, the definitive smell of a good bike shop (and usually a small but good bike shop - maybe the odour of tyre is just more concentrated in a small shop).
Hearing about bike shops in N. Carolina towns, this reminds me of my last visit to the US to attend a conference at Duke University in NC. During one lunch break I wandered up the road from where we were meeting and noticed just such a small bike shop (Durham Cycles). On dropping in, I was hit by the concentrated essence of tyre. Then on being asked if they could do anything for me I had to confess that I was just there for the smell.
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Post by franco on May 19, 2021 22:48:19 GMT
You can’t beat the smell of a good old fashioned bike shop!  |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 21, 2021 18:18:56 GMT
The frame arrived yesterday and looks better than the photos. I weighed it, 4 pounds 14 ounces! The two Viscount frames that I have weighed were 4 pounds even, and 4 pounds 3 ounces. I have weighed other Reynolds 531 frames and found them only a few ounces more than the Viscount. Nevertheless, it indicates how underrated the Viscount is. It seems the Paramount is a bit porky; perhaps the finish? Time will tell.
Ride Safe
Jim
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Post by brianbutler on May 21, 2021 20:48:22 GMT
The frame arrived yesterday and looks better than the photos. I weighed it, 4 pounds 14 ounces! The two Viscount frames that I have weighed were 4 pounds even, and 4 pounds 3 ounces. I have weighed other Reynolds 531 frames and found them only a few ounces more than the Viscount. Nevertheless, it indicates how underrated the Viscount is. It seems the Paramount is a bit porky; perhaps the finish? Time will tell. Ride Safe Jim The photo of the Paramount frame made it look longer than the Viscount, but that might be a photographic phenomenon. How do the measurements compare with a similar size Viscount?
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 21, 2021 22:13:36 GMT
It has a much shorter wheelbase than the Viscount, seat tube is an inch longer. I have a Mondia Special (Reynolds 531) frame with nearly identical dimensions to the Viscount; the Mondia weighs 4 pounds 7 ounces. Viscount is light, Paramount a bit heavy.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by brianbutler on May 22, 2021 0:02:46 GMT
It must be thicker gauge butted tubing. It should make for a stiff frame, which I like. I have a Dawes Galaxy in plain gauge Reynolds 531 and it is very stiff. I like the feel of it.
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on May 22, 2021 5:26:02 GMT
Good thinking and that makes sense; except I don't think they had a thick wall version of Butted 531 in 1979. In 1982 Reynolds came out with 531ST which would be heavier gauge but that was after the frame was built in 1979. The frame was refinished and may have old paint beneath the new (which is very thick). It may have junk in one of the tubes; I have found mud dauber nests, mud and sand in frame tubes. Time will tell. Bike Specs  1979 Paramount P13_9 Specs by Jim_Gude, on Flickr Cheers Jim |
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Post by franco on May 22, 2021 11:00:13 GMT
The frame arrived yesterday and looks better than the photos. I weighed it, 4 pounds 14 ounces! The two Viscount frames that I have weighed were 4 pounds even, and 4 pounds 3 ounces. I have weighed other Reynolds 531 frames and found them only a few ounces more than the Viscount. Nevertheless, it indicates how underrated the Viscount is. It seems the Paramount is a bit porky; perhaps the finish? Time will tell. Ride Safe Jim I’ve only ever owned one Reynolds 531 and quite a few 501 bikes, it may have been down to parts fitted but none of them were as light as my Aerospace Sport. When you think about it they were super light for their time. |
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Post by brianbutler on May 22, 2021 11:29:55 GMT
A couple of observations - It looks like the headset cups are still pressed onto your frame. That would add a little heft. Ditto the rear dropout adjusters. Also, in your photo of the top of the seat tube, the tube thickness looks substantially greater than on the Viscount. To be honest, I worry about the flimsy thickness of the Viscount seat tube, especially since I have one that cracked.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on May 22, 2021 12:34:55 GMT
A couple of observations - It looks like the headset cups are still pressed onto your frame. That would add a little heft. Ditto the rear dropout adjusters. Also, in your photo of the top of the seat tube, the tube thickness looks substantially greater than on the Viscount. To be honest, I worry about the flimsy thickness of the Viscount seat tube, especially since I have one that cracked. Brian Also, the Paramount is a lugged frame as opposed to (most of) the Viscounts being filet brazed. That would add a little, too. As far as the Viscount’s seat tube, I was amazed at the apparent thin tube until I thought a bit more about it. The V takes a 28.6 or 28.8 seat post whereas the Paramount’s is 27.2, with both having the same tube OD. The P, however, has a seat tube/top tube lug so the thickness is not as apparent. I don’t know, I’ll have to research that a bit more. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by brianbutler on May 22, 2021 13:09:11 GMT
A couple of observations - It looks like the headset cups are still pressed onto your frame. That would add a little heft. Ditto the rear dropout adjusters. Also, in your photo of the top of the seat tube, the tube thickness looks substantially greater than on the Viscount. To be honest, I worry about the flimsy thickness of the Viscount seat tube, especially since I have one that cracked. Brian Also, the Paramount is a lugged frame as opposed to (most of) the Viscounts being filet brazed. That would add a little, too. As far as the Viscount’s seat tube, I was amazed at the apparent thin tube until I thought a bit more about it. The V takes a 28.6 or 28.8 seat post whereas the Paramount’s is 27.2, with both having the same tube OD. The P, however, has a seat tube/top tube lug so the thickness is not as apparent. I don’t know, I’ll have to research that a bit more. Best, John “wheelson” Good point about the external seat/top tube lug on the Paramount. On the fillet brazed frame, the fillet itself adds a small amount of brass but probably much less than a lug. Downhill on bad pavement, I try not to think about the fact that the fillet brazed tubes are simply mitered carefully and then brazed together. Seems like another recipe for catastrophic failure but it apparently works.
The Viscount Gran Sports, which has a light fillet brazed frame (but threaded BB) takes a 26.4mm seat post. One of the Grand Prix's takes a 26.6. The other one has a circular shim of forgotten thickness and a 25.4mm seat post but I am guessing it would also take 26.6mm post directly.
This thread reminds me that at 23 pounds overweight I have no business worrying about grams or complaining about carrying 16 pounds of gear on the rear rack. The way is clear but daunting.
Brian
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. The hard part is having added one, another must go.
