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Post by brianbutler on Dec 31, 2020 13:57:25 GMT
I'm interested in experiences with brake pads for aluminum alloy rims. On the bikes I have restored and currently use, some have whatever was on the bike when I got it, some have new pads from a bag of 50 I imported from the orient. One has pink Kool-Stop's. The Kool-Stop pads work the best of any and are the only pads that work even adequately on that set of rims (Araya gold anodized but silver brake track.) Unfortunately they cost $25 for two pair, which might be more than I paid for the bike. The Chinese bag-o-brakes pads work almost as well as the Kool-Stop's on a couple of bikes but terribly on others. The original brakes (possibly replacements themselves) are name brands like Weinmann, Shimano, etc. Their performance is mixed, probably as a function of how hard they have become due to aging.
I have tried various treatments to improve mainly the Yuk-Foo brakes with limited success. For example, don't try automotive belt dressing. It has pretty much the opposite effect of what I expected. Rubber cement or tire vulcanizing compound might be helpful by softening the pads and making them stickier. I have tried sanding with various grits with not much effect. I have cleaned and surfaced the brake tracks, also with minimal effect.
I have not looked around on the internet yet because it sounds like a topic that would yield a lot of opinion and not much fact. If I ever build a completely stripped fixie, I'll go old school and use a gloved hand on the front tire. Yeah, right.
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Dec 31, 2020 16:26:42 GMT
Brian, I have been meaning to try rim pads from Tektro, on some of my classic brake calipers. I have installed a couple of Tektro rim brake sets, they just plain work. No muss, no fuss, just good brakes. I do find the plastic quick release lever to have a cheap feel. I am very impressed with Tektro road brake levers. They have a nice feel to them and have a nice little push button quick release (which can also be used to adjust the levers for small hands). Early Shimano 600 aero brake hoods are rare; when found they are extremely expensive. The early Dura Ace (7401) aero hoods are extinct. I have several bikes with these levers; not to mention several levers with missing or rotting hoods. I am trying a set of Tektro levers as a replacement for a Shimano 600 set; they are far nicer (but not original) and much cheaper than buying an old set of hoods. The Tektro lettering on the levers will buff off with 00 steel wool leaving a nice, polished finish. With some parts being plastic, I do doubt that they will last 40 years like Shimano levers.
The bane of early Shimano brakes.
Happy New Year Jim
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Post by franco on Dec 31, 2020 17:55:28 GMT
I can’t share any wisdom here I’m afraid as I buy standard brake pads from the LBS’s or use what is in my stash, which can be anything from old Weinmann pads to some unknown brand. If the older pads are shiny on the braking surface I rub them on sandpaper to dull the rubber.
Been wanting to try Kool Stop pads but the price puts me off, or Swissstop but they are even more expensive. The only pads I’ve specifically searched for and bought are ones for steel rims with a piece of leather down the centre.
Happy new year everyone!
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ks1u
Viscount
Posts: 76
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Post by ks1u on Dec 31, 2020 18:06:56 GMT
I have used everything imaginable over the years. Prior to rebuilding my Viscount, I used Magura hydraulic rim brakes and their standard pads with good results. They aren't as good as the disc brakes on my MTB, but I had no complaints. The Viscount now has the best brake pads and brakes I have ever used on a road bike. They are Paul center pull brakes with the thin line Salmon pads by Kool Stop. I was surprised at how well they stop and I'm able to modulate them without any grabbing or fading. I was going to use Tektro brakes on the GP but with 32c tires they just didn't have enough clearance so I went with the considerably more expensive Paul units.
George
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Post by wheelson on Dec 31, 2020 18:29:51 GMT
The Kool-Stop, (new) Matthauser, and Tektro pads all seem to work very well. I'm not enthused with the bags of generic pads we use at the shop. There is one type of cantilever brake pads that have the bumps that will set the initial toe-in, and I like this idea. I usually hit the pad braking surface with a flat file to remove the glazing from the surface. I'm thinking there's a coating of mold release on the surface. Older pads I will use a file or rasp to return the pads to a flat surface and to remove any imbedded grit or metallic bits. Use a dedicated file or rasp that's not used for metals as the metallic residue from the file may imbed in the pad and defeat all your efforts. Older shoes may have usable pad surface underneath the used surface if it hasn't totally hardened. Do your brake work last and don't allow the lubricants to contaminate the shoes. Pay particular attention to keep all the cables as friction free as possible. As far as the rim braking surface, it all depends on the condition of that surface. If it's really scored, scratched, or packed with pad residue, a 3-M pad and rubbing alcohol will usually do wonders. You might have to use a file to smooth any nicks in the rim that would cut the pad. Last step in the maintenance routine is to wipe the rim braking surface with alcohol, AFTER the chain lube. It's also a good idea to wipe off the rims and check the brake pads after a ride, particularly after a rail trail or gravel ride. Brakes, brake levers, and lever hoods are a huge issue with probably as many opinions as bike riders. I like cantilever brakes but mostly those with bolt-on brake pads (easier to adjust). Center-pulls are always great. In general, I'm amazed how well modern linear-pull brakes work (good ones, of course, not cheap bike OEM's). Side-pulls offer the greatest challenge, with modern dual-pivot being the best. However, if you're trying to keep the bike vintage, the older side-pulls tend to be "speed modulators" rather than brakes. For classic levers, non-aero, I like the early Dia-Compe or Weinmann with the metal or gray plastic adjuster at the cable exit, drilled lever handles if possible. The early Dura-Ace levers were much the same. A lot of the parts and hoods are interchangeable. Suntour levers were great, but a lot of variability and hoods are impossibly expensive. For modern levers, it's hard to beat Tektro or Cane Creek. Well, not a quick reply but the perspective of an old bike shop mechanic, currently contemplating another year of voluntary servitude in a small town bike shop. Happier New Year! John "wheelson"
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 22, 2021 7:45:53 GMT
I swear by Kool Stop Salmon brake pads (the orange ones). I use them on every bike I can. They are even more expensive here, AU$55 for one pair of the Mafac four-dot profile I need for the Toei. A bit less expensive for the Dura Ace profile. But IMHO brake pads are a dumb thing to save money on. I know these brake pads will stop me (or slow me down) reliably in all conditions: a parked car door opens in front of me, or I'm doing 70-80km/h down a winding mountain road. Or it's just suddenly really wet on my commute home.
This sounds expensive but compared to the cost of running a car it's nothing.
Lots of things were better in the old days I think we all agree on that. AFAIC you can keep most of 'advances' of the last 40 years: carbon frames, disc brakes, electronic shifting, 10 speed cassettes, brifters, clipless pedals, even gear indexing and hyper glide chains and cogs I can do without! But a few things are demonstrably and MILES better now: 1) brake pad compounds, 2) cables, 3) LED lights, 4) dynamos, 4) batteries. That's why brake pads plus gear and shifter cables are three things that should always be replaced straight away when you buy an old bike with original components. That's my rule of thumb anyway! b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 22, 2021 7:51:09 GMT
For replacement rubber hoods for non-aero classic brake levers like Dura-Ace and early 600 (or even Campy) search up the French brand "Rustines". They do a very good gum hood brand new. I think Velo Orange sell them online. It beats trying to find NOS Shimano gum hoods! Cane Creek do good ones that are almost gum but are actually brown, "not that there's anything wrong with that." b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 22, 2021 14:04:06 GMT
This is quite interesting: www.koolstop.com/english/compounds.htmlI especially love this one: "Trials - is an extreme compound for only experienced trick or trails riders needing a compound that will instantly lock the wheels." b
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 18, 2021 22:18:47 GMT
I finally replaced the cheap generic brake pads on my Viscount Gran Sports with Koolstop Continentals, which have the grey compound and fit classic calipers, in this case Shimano sidepulls scavenged from an early 80's Japanese bike. The braking is much improved but I was having problems with squealing due to insufficient toe-in. The humorous instructions that came with the pads suggests sticking a thin card between the rear of the pad and the rim then tightening the fixing nut to get the right toe-in. That sounds good but of course it doesn't work because it simply compresses the pad and/or temporarily twists the caliper a minute amount, both of which spring back to their original positions when the card is removed.
I sometimes insert a guitar pick between the front of the pad and the caliper before tightening. This works but causes the fixing nut to be not be flush withg the outside of the caliper. Plus the pick looks like a hack.
This time, I deformed the calipers into the position I wanted by inserting a flat bladed screwdriver into the notch of the caliper and twisting it into place. Fortunately nothing broke and they are now adjusted.
Wheelson, I believe you sand your pads before installation. I am notoriously bad at sanding or filing shallow angles but if there is a good technique I might give it a try.
I have never had brake pads start squealing when they wore down to parallel with the brake tracks, so perhaps it is just toe-OUT that must be avoided.
Brian
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jul 18, 2021 23:24:59 GMT
brianbutler I seem to remember physically twisting the brake calipers with pliers was a standard way for adjusting toe-in back in the day. I'm sure wheelson would know. If you happen to snap a caliper arm, you could buy a few spares here... b
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 19, 2021 4:47:35 GMT
I have never liked bending aluminum even though bending caliper arms is a tried and true method. I have a set of Modolos that would not stop squealing until I sanded the pads (I used a small bench top sander). Of course now days, the best way is to use brake shoes with spherical washers; sadly, these usually do not appear period correct. A trick from long ago was to stick a match book cover in the side you wished to be farthest from the rim, tighten it up and trim away the excess match book cover. I have never had much luck with this as they tend to loosen up. I also have tried grinding an angle into washers. It was very tedious and I was disappointed with the result; not to mention hurting my fingers. Then there was my failed attempt with little washers cut in half. This all brings me back to my little bench top sander.
Cheers Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 19, 2021 11:31:21 GMT
brianbutler I seem to remember physically twisting the brake calipers with pliers was a standard way for adjusting toe-in back in the day. I'm sure wheelson would know. If you happen to snap a caliper arm, you could buy a few spares here... b Not a bad deal, but it's only enough outfit 50 of my bikes
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 19, 2021 11:38:01 GMT
I have never liked bending aluminum even though bending caliper arms is a tried and true method. I have a set of Modolos that would not stop squealing until I sanded the pads (I used a small bench top sander). Of course now days, the best way is to use brake shoes with spherical washers; sadly, these usually do not appear period correct. A trick from long ago was to stick a match book cover in the side you wished to be farthest from the rim, tighten it up and trim away the excess match book cover. I have never had much luck with this as they tend to loosen up. I also have tried grinding an angle into washers. It was very tedious and I was disappointed with the result; not to mention hurting my fingers. Then there was my failed attempt with little washers cut in half. This all brings me back to my little bench top sander.
Cheers Jim
Good ideas, Jim. I've tried them all except the bench sander. If I had the space and budget, I would try it too. It does give me a couple of ideas for making a manual sanding jig out of an old table saw I noticed at the recycling center.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jul 19, 2021 12:11:31 GMT
I have never liked bending aluminum even though bending caliper arms is a tried and true method. I have a set of Modolos that would not stop squealing until I sanded the pads (I used a small bench top sander). Of course now days, the best way is to use brake shoes with spherical washers; sadly, these usually do not appear period correct. A trick from long ago was to stick a match book cover in the side you wished to be farthest from the rim, tighten it up and trim away the excess match book cover. I have never had much luck with this as they tend to loosen up. I also have tried grinding an angle into washers. It was very tedious and I was disappointed with the result; not to mention hurting my fingers. Then there was my failed attempt with little washers cut in half. This all brings me back to my little bench top sander.
Cheers Jim
I like that sander, Jim. It looks perfect for that and many other bike chores. Brake pads always seem to have a coating that seems too slick for my liking. I always associated this with a mold release agent, but who knows. That and the various lubricants used on a bike that can find their way to the braking surface. I always brush the pad surface with a file or rasp before installing. Used pads get the same treatment at tuneup, exposing any embedded metal, another culprit of squealing. As far as bending brake arms, that’s generally not a good idea, vintage Universal 68’s in particular. I find that if you put a forward pressure on the shoe when tightening that will many times give a bit of offset. Also, check the rims for pad buildup, a Scotch Brite works well for this. Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 19, 2021 18:30:32 GMT
I updated the photo. It now is of my actual sander with the little fixture I made to hold the pad. Bench Top Sander by Jim_Gude, on Flickr Cheers Jim
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Post by wheelson on Jul 19, 2021 20:55:22 GMT
I updated the photo. It now is of my actual sander with the little fixture I made to hold the pad. Bench Top Sander by Jim_Gude, on Flickr Cheers Jim Excellent! This is an idea that I really have to try. Many of the bikes that come into our shop for repair have been sitting up for a while and the shoes are glazed, hardened, or have a dried voting of whatever. We do try to save the customers money whenever we can, especially on low end bikes. Many of the repair bills exceed the original price of the bike by 3 or 4 times, and we are probably the lowest priced shop in a pretty large area. Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 19, 2021 21:54:01 GMT
John, I think you are onto something with the mold release idea. Can't hurt to rough up the pads a bit. They might even settle down into position that doesn't squeal. As far as bending the arms, it was a last resort. In general it is hard to believe how poorly designed and manufactured most caliper brakes really are. At least the ones I have seen. I feel lucky they stop me at all.
Brian
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