Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,418
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Post by Jem on Aug 27, 2020 12:18:27 GMT
The name for them is a bit off putting , but I am coming out to say I really like them and use them quite a bit. I find they are useful when manoeuvring and in tight area like a supermarket car park, or some such place. I set the poll up to see what other folk think - I might be the only one?
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Post by wheelson on Aug 27, 2020 12:46:06 GMT
Hard to answer that one. I guess the levers fell into question because they offer somewhat less braking power than the main levers. So when the average novice cyclist let his brakes get out of adjustment and had little normal braking power, then the suicide levers gave practically none.
Personally, I have used them in the past but not in years. I may have to again for physical reasons as my current ailments have rendered my hand strength at way less than before and I'm also into modifying most of my bikes to give me a more upright position.
That said, if you can find the Shimano version of these levers, they have a much more positive attachment and are more robust overall. I will most likely put these on my wife's road bike that is in the works.
If you have the original Lambert levers, I believe (but haven't tried yet) they can be modified to the Weinmann or Dia Compe suicide levers by changing out the pivot pin.
So I guess I'm in a different class in the poll: didn't like 'em in the past, good for some IF brakes are in proper adjustment, and perhaps great for me going forward.
Best, John "wheelson"
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,418
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Post by Jem on Aug 27, 2020 14:03:48 GMT
Good points John - I wouldn't be riding up-right down a steep hill, and as such wouldn't be relying on them to stop me in emergency or suchlike (and wouldn't at any real speed) But I think they have their place and for 'known stops' like an upcoming traffic lights , they are fine. As I say in the original post, i really like them when manoeuvring at very low speeds too.
I think I put it down to the fact that I had some very good Shimano ones on my Viscount in my best bike riding years, between the ages of 14-17. They would actually stop me under almost every circumstance....then again , I was only 9 stone then!
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Post by franco on Aug 27, 2020 14:35:01 GMT
I use them as much as the main levers if not more. My preferred hand positions are on the hoods and tops, so with older levers being difficult to access unless you are down near the drops I end up using the suicide levers. Ideally I should fit some aero levers so I can brake from the hoods.
With some fine adjustments and regular maintenance they can be quite effective. The wheels have to be true so the brake blocks are only a few mm away from the rim and blocks in good condition.
I can’t remember which brands I have now but they’re fitted on three of my Viscounts and they are not the same.
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Post by brianbutler on Aug 27, 2020 14:55:03 GMT
I don't like them for the following reasons:
1. Less braking power, especially as the brakes wear and/or cables stretch. 2. Encourages a hand position (top of the bars) that I think offers poor steering control.
This one is more subjective:
3. I think they spoil the appearance of the bike. This definitely has something to do with the fact that they typically appeared on lower-end bike-boom bikes, some of which I had at the time wished I didn't. They also make it impossible to use regular brakes hoods for a more finished look.
I usually remove the suicide levers and cut off the pivot pin so I can install hoods. As a side benefit, the leftover levers can be bent into excellent hooks for coats, tires, bungee cords, larger tools, etc.
Having said this, I just acquired a 1975-ish Motobecane Grand Touring for refurbishment. It is 100% original except for tires and has many really nice components. It will make a fine addition to my collection of riders. It does have the original suicide levers and I will have to decide whether they stay or go.
Brian
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Post by cusqueno on Aug 27, 2020 15:34:36 GMT
I'm pretty much of Brian's way of thinking - I would normally remove the suicide levers or replace the brake levers entirely. However, I do have a pair of first gen Dura Ace brake levers, including the suicide ones, which go with a set of first gen DA centre pull brakes. These are lined up for my Viscount Corsair Mixte bike when I convert it back to drop bars - it currently has straights. The bike originally had Tourney levers with suicide bits. But. These DA ones are, in my opinion, a cut above most s/lever brakes in that the s/levers directly pull on the cables. In most s/lever types the s/levers themselves act on the main levers in a fairly loose and random manner, which causes them to feel - and be - spongy. In the DA brakes the s/levers are primary and the ordinary levers work on them. Hope this photo helps to show that. suicide lever by ShouldbeCusquenobutF**krwontletmeintomyproperaccou, on Flickr
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Post by nev65 on Aug 27, 2020 18:59:00 GMT
Personally I don't like them, although they are undeniably an icon of 80s cycling!
Back when i was a kid, I followed my friends examples and fitted them to my Nevada.
They didn't do much for me so after about 6 months i removed them again.
They do figure on my late 70s Aerospace Sport, and i am wanting to remove them for my upcoming refurbishment.
I guess if they are well maintained, and suit people's riding style, then they are a good thing, and certainly part of the character of the Viscounts at the time.
I however prefer an uncluttered handlebar..so the incumbent suicide levers on my bike will definitely be coming off.
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Post by franco on Aug 27, 2020 19:39:53 GMT
Out of interest, can anyone recommend some levers that allow riding on the hoods and wouldn’t look out of place on a 70’s Viscount? By that I mean fitted higher up the curve on the handlebars without the levers looking wrong.
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Post by brianbutler on Aug 28, 2020 20:57:43 GMT
Very interesting Cusqueno, about the Dura Ace extension levers. I have a set of Shimano Del 44 levers with extensions that have a similar design. They were on my 1975 Sebring when I got it in 2018, so I don't know if they are original. I had never heard of Del 44 components until then. They were paired with Tourney center pulls. I replaced the levers and calipers earlier this year. Here is a photo:
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Post by brianbutler on Aug 28, 2020 21:19:19 GMT
Just did some analysis of extension levers vs. not. I can't find a reason to want them. Here are my ill-tempered observations.
Here is my braking hand position in the drops without extension levers. This position gives the best leverage when you need it most:
Here is the braking hand position on the hoods without extension levers. Leverage not quite as good, but still pretty good.
Here it is in the drops, with extension levers. The problem here is potentially getting the thumb tangled in the extension lever right when you don't want that to happen.
Here is the hand position on the [lack of] hoods with extension levers. Clumsy at best. I don't think riding on the hoods is supported when you have extension levers.
Here is the only position that actually makes sense with extension levers, except that it doesn't make sense to be holding the middle of the handlebar with your thumb pointing down while moving. OK if you are waiting at a red light.
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Post by wheelson on Aug 29, 2020 4:12:19 GMT
I've never been a fan of the look of suicide levers. And having been there at their inception on Schwinn bikes in the '60s and '70s, I was never thrilled with their long term functionality when the system loosened up. BUT I do appreciate their positioning for someone who has increasing difficulty in riding on the drops. Now what might make more sense are the new cross bar levers that use the brake cable in series with the normal road brake levers. These don't interfere with riding on the hoods and don't take up all the top of the bar. A lot of the hardcore road and tri bike riders that come into our shop are outfitting their bikes with these. Because of my increasingly severe spinal disk and arthritic condition, I find it difficult to use normal road levers and I'm currently outfitting two of my more modern road bikes with the cross bar levers and one bike to flat bar. Whether I convert any of my classics to suicide levers remains to be seen, but I believe my '74 Schwinn Paramount may well have left the factory with them, although I didn't build it up that way. Best, John "wheelson"
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Post by brianbutler on Aug 29, 2020 11:34:04 GMT
John, what brand of cross bar levers are you using? Can you provide a link to more info about them. I am aware of how they work and have seen some information but nothing very specific.
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Post by wheelson on Aug 29, 2020 13:52:55 GMT
Brian, there is a good guide for the levers here: www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/ I think everybody makes them, Tektro, Cane Creek, Specialized and Nashbar labeled. Be sure to watch for the handlebar diameter. They basically come in 31.8 for modern bars or 26 mm (I think) for classic bars. I usually find mine on eBay since the smaller diameter is a bit harder to find but they seem to be available here though I've never bought from them: www.aventon.com/products/cane-creek-cross-top-brake-lever-set-24mm-clampI guess the correct name for these things is cross top levers. Best, John "wheelson"
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Post by seanick on Sept 1, 2020 9:18:20 GMT
I like mine. They work fine, and are Shimano. I have recently fitted modern front brake pads, the Clarke ones with the three different compounds. They are longer than original, meant for mountain bikes, and don't look period, but they are silent, silky smooth, stop well, an actually look kinda cool! I would also add that some of my rides average 20mph, so I'm not dawdling!
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Post by franco on Mar 30, 2021 21:36:01 GMT
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Post by wheelson on Mar 31, 2021 13:09:28 GMT
I just put a set of the cross bar brake levers on my Cannondale “gravel” bike, drop bars with 3 by 8 speed STI shifters. Since the STI’s combine the brake and shifting on the same lever, I think the cross bars are going to be helpful to my aging arthritic body. Less reach and no false shifting for “casual” braking from a more upright position. 😐 Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by wheelson on May 22, 2021 13:05:39 GMT
I just put a set of the cross bar brake levers on my Cannondale “gravel” bike, drop bars with 3 by 8 speed STI shifters. Since the STI’s combine the brake and shifting on the same lever, I think the cross bars are going to be helpful to my aging arthritic body. Less reach and no false shifting for “casual” braking from a more upright position. 😐 Best, John “wheelson” Just a bit of update on the cross bar brake levers that I installed on my Cannondale. I’m really pleased with their functionality as I’m starting to ride in a more upright position but don’t want to give up my drop bars. Since they’re an in-line cable system, they feel as positive as the regular levers. So they’re going on all my modern bikes with the aero cable routing. As far as classic cable routing, I may try some of the old Shimano safety levers as they use a more positive engagement system than the Weinmann or DiaCompe. Heavy, though. Best, John “wheelson”
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 15, 2021 7:06:44 GMT
When I was a kid they were known in Aus as 'lazy brakes' and they instantly made your bike look mid-range. As soon as I could I cut them off so I was not so tempted to ride on the tops like a dork, but reach for the hoods like the pros one occasionally saw on the telly. This was in the era of Phil Anderson (early to mid 80s). Kind of paired in my mind with steel rims, spoke protectors and foam handlebar covers. b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 15, 2021 7:10:26 GMT
The other suicide components are suicide shifters, which is I believe what anyone who started cycling in the 21st C. calls downtube shifters. The generation before that uses the term for lever-actuated front derailleurs, which I like to call wireless shifters!
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Post by wheelson on Jun 15, 2021 12:48:25 GMT
The other suicide components are suicide shifters, which is I believe what anyone who started cycling in the 21st C. calls downtube shifters. The generation before that uses the term for lever-actuated front derailleurs, which I like to call wireless shifters! The suicide brake levers were perhaps rightly named as they definitely downgraded braking power especially for the average rider who wasn’t on top of maintenance, to put it lightly. As far as the suicide shifters, Schwinn also used them but earlier than my 1966 entry as bike mechanic. The sign of a low tier bike was the stem shifter. Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jun 15, 2021 13:10:54 GMT
When I was a kid they were known in Aus as 'lazy brakes' and they instantly made your bike look mid-range. As soon as I could I cut them off so I was not so tempted to ride on the tops like a dork, but reach for the hoods like the pros one occasionally saw on the telly. This was in the era of Phil Anderson (early to mid 80s). Kind of paired in my mind with steel rims, spoke protectors and foam handlebar covers. b Your perception is right on; it was the same in the states. Nevertheless, they were handy. The mid or entry level bike look they gave caused many to loathe them. I have a NOS set sitting about and have been loath to use them. I don't particularly loathe them; just never found a home for them. Forgive me, sometimes I need practice with loath and loathe.
Ride Safe Jim
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Post by cusqueno on Jun 15, 2021 17:20:46 GMT
I have a Dura-Ace set of suicide lever brakes, which Shimano made for a short time in the early 70s. They are different from most of their type in that the suicide levers are the primary brake mechanism, acting directly on the cable with the nipple housed within the in-board bit of the lever. It is the 'racing' brake levers that work indirectly, by acting on the suicide lever. For most sets of suicide lever brakes the situation is opposite to that, with normal racing brake leverss on which the suicide levers act. For some brands, this results in a very sketchy action, with lots of backlash and flex.
I don't usually like suicide levers, for the reasons previously mentioned, but I am planning to put them on my Viscount mixte when I convert that back to drop bars from straights. It already has Dura Ace centre-pull brakes fitted (again only made for a short while in the early 70s).
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Post by wheelson on Jun 15, 2021 22:27:54 GMT
I have a Dura-Ace set of suicide lever brakes, which Shimano made for a short time in the early 70s. They are different from most of their type in that the suicide levers are the primary brake mechanism, acting directly on the cable with the nipple housed within the in-board bit of the lever. It is the 'racing' brake levers that work indirectly, by acting on the suicide lever. For most sets of suicide lever brakes the situation is opposite to that, with normal racing brake leverss on which the suicide levers act. For some brands, this results in a very sketchy action, with lots of backlash and flex. I don't usually like suicide levers, for the reasons previously mentioned, but I am planning to put them on my Viscount mixte when I convert that back to drop bars from straights. It already has Dura Ace centre-pull brakes fitted (again only made for a short while in the early 70s). Agreed, the Shimano Dura Ace auxiliary levers are in a class by themselves. I plan to put a set on Mrs.W’s Lambert since she is so used to her Cannondale flat bar levers. The later Shimano DA levers use the same design as Weinmann and DiaCompe. Too springy and when the brakes wear in, these are virtually useless aka suicidal. Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by franco on Jun 16, 2021 8:13:45 GMT
I have a Dura-Ace set of suicide lever brakes, which Shimano made for a short time in the early 70s. They are different from most of their type in that the suicide levers are the primary brake mechanism, acting directly on the cable with the nipple housed within the in-board bit of the lever. It is the 'racing' brake levers that work indirectly, by acting on the suicide lever. For most sets of suicide lever brakes the situation is opposite to that, with normal racing brake leverss on which the suicide levers act. For some brands, this results in a very sketchy action, with lots of backlash and flex. I don't usually like suicide levers, for the reasons previously mentioned, but I am planning to put them on my Viscount mixte when I convert that back to drop bars from straights. It already has Dura Ace centre-pull brakes fitted (again only made for a short while in the early 70s). Interesting, I’ll have a look for some of those. I never go in the drops so to have some efficient suicide levers would be a great addition to the Pro or 400.
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