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Post by brianbutler on Jun 26, 2023 15:16:15 GMT
I was bottom fishing on Craigslist the other day (select bike category, sort by ascending price, disregard anything below $5) and spotted a dilapidated men's frame Raleigh Sports for $20 nearby. Looking at the photo I noticed it had a quadrant shifter on the top tube, meaning it probably had a Sturmey Archer K hub dating from 1931-1938. I said I would take it and picked it up a week later when the seller returned from vacation .
Here are some photos I took before disassembling the bike:
It turns out NOT to have a K hub, but an AW hub with threaded driver and a black left ball cup but no date code. Evidently that implies it is a "war time" hub so 1939-1945. Maybe it replaced the original K hub or maybe wartime bikes were built using surplus quadrant shifters.
The bike has a serial number AD63111 near the top of the seat tube but serial numbers through the late 30's and early 40's are ambiguous. During disassembly I noticed a number of things I had not seen before so I'm sure this pre-dates my 1954 Sports. The seat tube is marked "Raleigh Sports Model" and other barely visible graphics imply a mid-30's vintage.
One very cool accessory is the Veeder Trip Cyclometer. This model was made between 1911 and 1939. It even had the cleverly designed striker still attached to a spoke.
I am trying to decide how to bring this back to life without ruining it. At present I'm thinking of cleaning the frame and sheet metal but leaving the "patina" intact. I will refurbish the headset, BB, brakes, pedals, and shifter. The rims and spokes and are pretty bad. I would like refurbish the hub but have not decided whether to keep it in the old wheel or use a nice set of steel wheels I already have. Also not sure whether to retain the old rusted wheels or not. Maybe I should just put the wheels (with hubs) aside and install the newer set of wheels (from mid 60's) for everyday use.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 26, 2023 20:09:19 GMT
I found a 1939 Raleigh catalog on Sheldon Brown and the specifications match my bike pretty closely so I am calling it a 1939.
Brian
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390 
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Post by Jem on Jun 27, 2023 7:52:48 GMT
For $20, why not ?!!
That is pretty much the model my uncle used to ride (he'd be about 100 now if still alive). He even put a little wooden seat on the cross bar for me to sit on when I was about 3 years old. Great memories
I'm a big fan of leaving a bike with as much patina as possible. Good luck on your restoration there Brian.
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Post by triitout on Jun 28, 2023 3:01:41 GMT
Interesting project you've found. I'm with Jem when it comes to preserving the patina but it would be awesome to get it back on the road with a decent wheel set. Good luck!
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jun 29, 2023 2:31:03 GMT
I agree, make it road worthy but keep it as original as possible .
Cool Bike
Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 11, 2023 13:52:45 GMT
The 1938/39 Raleigh Sports project is coming along. Most of the moving parts are cleaned and refurbished. The frame and sheet metal have been cleaned, lightly polished and waxed to keep as much of the original finish as possible. The full chain case is an interesting beast. The right [cottered] crank must be removed to remove the case. It is precisely fastened to the frame by a machine bolt shown at the 9 o'clock position in the photo below. The bolt threads into a stout brazed-on fitting on the chain stay. Along with a close-fitting clamp at the rear, it keeps the keeps the chain case perfectly aligned with the chain and chain ring to prevent rubbing. The clearance between the bolt head and the chain ring is probably less than 2mm.
Chain lubrication is by drizzling oil through a copper plug on the top of the case. Excess oil is drained through a similar plug on the bottom of the case. It works pretty well because I believe the chain is original and shows about 0.50% elongation. It is also an incredible oily mess.
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 12, 2023 13:23:40 GMT
Brian, your Raleigh is a very interesting bit of history. You may like the photo.
Cheers Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 12, 2023 17:26:25 GMT
Thanks, Jim, for another good set of data. I was looking at some late 30's Raleigh catalogs, comparing listed features with what's on my bike. I think the model 37, Sports Tourist, is a perfect match and I believe it must be a 1938 or 1939, which are identical in the catalogs. If I could find out whether the 1938 had Sturmey Archer AW hubs with a black or silver ball cup, I could tell. Mine is black. For some reason, now forgotten, that makes 1939 seem more likely.
Here is the 1938 Model 37 catalog page. How about that bike orgy banner at the top of the page?
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 13, 2023 0:06:27 GMT
The original rims and spokes are too far gone. I have good set of wheels from a 1960 "Popular." The rims are steel Dunlops that look exactly like the originals. Spoking is also the same - 40 rear and 32 front. Even the whitewall tires are pretty good. The hubs are also good but not the right vintage. The front hub on the '39 has a thinner axle and a very interesting way to prevent dropping a wheel. The rear hub is wrong in several ways. I plan to refurbish the original hub gear and front hub and lace them into the good rims/spokes.
I cut the original rear hub out of its wheel and after careful inspection I see a faint "AW 9", which I believe indicates 1939, so the date puzzle might be solved.
Brian
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,390
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Post by Jem on Jul 13, 2023 13:18:39 GMT
The original rims and spokes are too far gone. I have good set of wheels from a 1960 "Popular." The rims are steel Dunlops that look exactly like the originals. Spoking is also the same - 40 rear and 32 front. Even the whitewall tires are pretty good. The hubs are also good but not the right vintage. The front hub on the '39 has a thinner axle and a very interesting way to prevent dropping a wheel. The rear hub is wrong in several ways. I plan to refurbish the original hub gear and front hub and lace them into the good rims/spokes. I cut the original rear hub out of its wheel and after careful inspection I see a faint "AW 9", which I believe indicates 1939, so the date puzzle might be solved. Brian Really looking forward to seeing this when you're done Brian. |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 13, 2023 17:05:41 GMT
Industrial safety and environmental concerns certainly have changed.
Cheers Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 13, 2023 20:44:02 GMT
Industrial safety and environmental concerns certainly have changed.
Cheers Jim
I want to be a Raleigh test rider when and if I grow up.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 14, 2023 15:45:15 GMT
Front and rear hubs cleaned and ready to reassemble.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 14, 2023 19:32:20 GMT
Industrial safety and environmental concerns certainly have changed.
Cheers Jim
The painting technique of dipping the frame and operator's hand into a vat of enamel is staggering. How do they avoid runs? How does the worker get his hand clean at the end of the day?
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 14, 2023 20:44:41 GMT
Yes the hand in the paint; perhaps they washed their hands in Trichloroethylene? I once worked (1960s) in a printed circuit board factory where we did just that! Of course they seemed to have a complete absence of personal protective equipment.
Be Safe
Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 14, 2023 22:19:47 GMT
Yes the hand in the paint; perhaps they washed their hands in Trichloroethylene? I once worked (1960s) in a printed circuit board factory where we did just that! Of course they seemed to have a complete absence of personal protective equipment. Be Safe Jim Haha, Trichloroethylene. In about 1980, I had a bike chain that was gunked up beyond belief but it was before I had heard of replacing chains. I took it down to a local machine shop and asked the owner how he cleaned greasy parts. He said Trichloroethylene, pulled out a roasting pot of the stuff, tossed in my chain and swirled it around a few times. I asked when I should come back and he said "Huh?". He pulled out the chain (with his hands of course) and it was spotless, probably no more than 20 seconds in that stuff. He said it was pretty good but not as good as carbon tetrachloride, but that was too dangerous!
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 17, 2023 17:45:10 GMT
Front and rear hubs cleaned and ready to reassemble.
Brian
A minor snag: The donor front wheel has 14 gauge spokes but the 1939 hub takes 15 gauge. I am in the process of trying to de-rust the original spokes because I was hoping to do this refurb without buying anything. If that is unsuccessful, I will buy 32 15-gauge 296mm spokes, not the easiest to find. The rear spokes, all 40 of them, are 14 gauge. The donor rims are pretty good, shiny steel with light rust inside at certain spots. The profile is identical to the [rusted beyond repair] originals.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 19, 2023 14:40:04 GMT
I'm facing a problem building the '39 hub into a new wheel. The 18T sprocket will interfere with lacing the spokes. With modern SA hubs, the sprocket is retained on the "driver" by a circlip and is easy to remove and replace. However, the older driver takes a threaded sprocket. I cannot figure a good way to remove the sprocket without risking damage to the driver, which would be very hard to replace. I have been soaking the threads in Kroil, and occasionally trying to remove the sprocket with a chain whip while the driver straddles a steel bar held in a vise. I am reluctant to pull too hard, not knowing which will yield first - the sprocket (good), the chain whip (bad), the driver (really bad). If anyone has done this or has a suggestion, please let me know.
As a workaround, I can do one of the following:
1. Temporarily install a modern driver just to hold the hub together for lacing, then replace it with the vintage driver after the wheel is built.
2. Permanently install a modern driver, lace the wheel, then install a modern sprocket. I will hold onto the original for safekeeping.
Here is the driver/sprocket assembly:
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jul 19, 2023 18:04:55 GMT
Brian, I’d vote for the alternate option 1. Build the wheel, get the bike going, and keep the threaded driver to play with. If you ever get it apart without breaking something or “someone”, then you have the option of adding a freewheel for another project. If by chance you break a spoke on the ‘30s build, you won’t have to remove the driver to replace it. Just a thought.
Best,
John “wheelson”
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 19, 2023 20:23:42 GMT
Brian, I’d vote for the alternate option 1. Build the wheel, get the bike going, and keep the threaded driver to play with. If you ever get it apart without breaking something or “someone”, then you have the option of adding a freewheel for another project. If by chance you break a spoke on the ‘30s build, you won’t have to remove the driver to replace it. Just a thought. Best, John “wheelson” That sounds like good advice and keeps my options open, as you point out. Just to be sure, you recommend alternative option 2, correct?
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jul 19, 2023 23:21:21 GMT
Brian, I’d vote for the alternate option 1. Build the wheel, get the bike going, and keep the threaded driver to play with. If you ever get it apart without breaking something or “someone”, then you have the option of adding a freewheel for another project. If by chance you break a spoke on the ‘30s build, you won’t have to remove the driver to replace it. Just a thought. Best, John “wheelson” That sounds like good advice and keeps my options open, as you point out. Just to be sure, you recommend alternative option 2, correct?
Brian
Option 1 will get the wheel built, might as well leave it all together and ride it. That’s Option 2, I guess. It buys you time and lets you decide what you want to do with the threaded driver. I just know that at some point you’ll want to screw a freewheel onto it as a fun exercise and then it probably won’t fit with the Raleigh’s spacing anyway. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 20, 2023 0:08:45 GMT
That sounds like good advice and keeps my options open, as you point out. Just to be sure, you recommend alternative option 2, correct?
Brian
Option 1 will get the wheel built, might as well leave it all together and ride it. That’s Option 2, I guess. It buys you time and lets you decide what you want to do with the threaded driver. I just know that at some point you’ll want to screw a freewheel onto it as a fun exercise and then it probably won’t fit with the Raleigh’s spacing anyway. Best, John “wheelson” I swapped drivers between the 1939 AW and a 1968 AW I had reconditioned a while ago. The '68 has three tabs, spacers, and a retaining ring to secure the modern-style cog. After the wheel is built I will install a cog and use the bike that way. The old threaded driver is installed on the '68 for safekeeping.
I don't understand how I would use a threaded-on freewheel in combination with the 3 speed hub. What do you have in mind? I am intrigued.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jul 20, 2023 1:12:59 GMT
Option 1 will get the wheel built, might as well leave it all together and ride it. That’s Option 2, I guess. It buys you time and lets you decide what you want to do with the threaded driver. I just know that at some point you’ll want to screw a freewheel onto it as a fun exercise and then it probably won’t fit with the Raleigh’s spacing anyway. Best, John “wheelson” I swapped drivers between the 1939 AW and a 1968 AW I had reconditioned a while ago. The '68 has three tabs, spacers, and a retaining ring to secure the modern-style cog. After the wheel is built I will install a cog and use the bike that way. The old threaded driver is installed on the '68 for safekeeping.
I don't understand how I would use a threaded-on freewheel in combination with the 3 speed hub. What do you have in mind? I am intrigued.
Brian
“Back in the day” some adventuresome souls would screw two or three cog freewheels on the driver to multiply the gears, internal and external. It was quite a trick to hook up to say the least, especially the SA shifting mechanism. These days, just an engineering exercise. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 20, 2023 1:42:50 GMT
I swapped drivers between the 1939 AW and a 1968 AW I had reconditioned a while ago. The '68 has three tabs, spacers, and a retaining ring to secure the modern-style cog. After the wheel is built I will install a cog and use the bike that way. The old threaded driver is installed on the '68 for safekeeping.
I don't understand how I would use a threaded-on freewheel in combination with the 3 speed hub. What do you have in mind? I am intrigued.
Brian
“Back in the day” some adventuresome souls would screw two or three cog freewheels on the driver to multiply the gears, internal and external. It was quite a trick to hook up to say the least, especially the SA shifting mechanism. These days, just an engineering exercise. Best, John “wheelson” Yes, I can see why it would be an interesting mechanical challenge. Also a mental challenge to keep track of three shifters while riding it.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jul 20, 2023 3:04:21 GMT
“Back in the day” some adventuresome souls would screw two or three cog freewheels on the driver to multiply the gears, internal and external. It was quite a trick to hook up to say the least, especially the SA shifting mechanism. These days, just an engineering exercise. Best, John “wheelson” Yes, I can see why it would be an interesting mechanical challenge. Also a mental challenge to keep track of three shifters while riding it.
Brian
Well, only two shifters as the only ones I’ve seen were to gain more gears on a typical three speed setup with no front derailleur involved. Still a beast of a challenge. Best, J “w” |
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