|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 14, 2023 16:35:10 GMT
Hi all, I would like to ask you that a Maillard 14-32 5 speed freewheel will work with a Shimano Titlist RD?  Maillard 14-32 5 speed NOS freewheel by Viktor Deak, on Flickr I read on many sites that the Titlist works with a max 28T cog. It is true? Many thanks in advance Viktor |
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 14, 2023 18:22:37 GMT
This link will take you to the 1974 Shimano catalog. The Titlist is listed but max cog size is not. The short cage can manage 28 tooth chain wrap while the long cage GS can manage 34 teeth. I have a 34 on my Viscount that is equipped with a Crane GS. I suspect the Titlist would be similar.
Cheers Jim
|
|
Jem
Viscount
?
Posts: 3,390 
|
Post by Jem on Mar 14, 2023 20:52:31 GMT
Viktor - I can't remember where I had a 'calculator' for this, but I did need to find out for one bike I had. Maybe I just asked the question here and got help, or maybe it was deep into the details on Velo-Base? Sorry I cant be of more help, but it was a good few years ago and I haven't changed a freewheel or RD since. I do know from posts on here (and in particular RobT) has said that although there is a max recommended, it seems through trial and error it has been proven that you can 'get away' with more. I would expect that when RobT comes to the forum, he will have some experience on this |
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 14, 2023 21:17:54 GMT
The "wrapping calculation" is ((large chainring + large cog) - (small chainring + small cog)) / 2.
In your case ((52 + 32) - (42 + 14)) / 2 = 14, so the RD needs to be able to wrap 14 links. This is not strictly true because you might never use the large-large or small-small combination, but you could end up with a slack chain in small-small, or a "suicide setup" in large-large.
The other thing is the documentation for the short cage Titlist says max 28 teeth, but I believe that refers to the maximum size cog due to vertical clearance, not the wrapping capacity, which is not stated.
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Mar 15, 2023 13:24:19 GMT
The Crane GS and the Titlist GS are dimensionally the same (some individual pieces are different but will interchange within the same “generation”). They have both been spec’s by manufacturers with a 14-34 freewheel and 52-42 chainring setup, as on the Schwinn World Voyageur. Typically the trouble begins with a triple or compact double when the inner chainring gets very small. Then the front derailleur capacity comes into play.
Best,
John “wheelson”
|
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 15, 2023 13:52:00 GMT
The Crane GS and the Titlist GS are dimensionally the same (some individual pieces are different but will interchange within the same “generation”). They have both been spec’s by manufacturers with a 14-34 freewheel and 52-42 chainring setup, as on the Schwinn World Voyageur. Typically the trouble begins with a triple or compact double when the inner chainring gets very small. Then the front derailleur capacity comes into play. Best, John “wheelson” Okay, thanks for the info. I try to find somewhere a GS modell What is the capacity of the Titlist front derailleur? Because I plan to change the 42T to a 28T. Can the Titlist FD handle this? Or what is the minimum chainring size beside the 52T Porthole? Many thanks in advance Viktor PS: Sorry for the many questions, I would like to build for me a comfy dreambike  |
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 15, 2023 16:41:25 GMT
The Crane GS and the Titlist GS are dimensionally the same (some individual pieces are different but will interchange within the same “generation”). They have both been spec’s by manufacturers with a 14-34 freewheel and 52-42 chainring setup, as on the Schwinn World Voyageur. Typically the trouble begins with a triple or compact double when the inner chainring gets very small. Then the front derailleur capacity comes into play. Best, John “wheelson” Hi John, I found Titlist GS and Crane GS RD’s only with very high price. Is any long cage Shimano DR good for the 32T cog? KR Viktor |
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 15, 2023 19:24:32 GMT
What if, when I simply not use the 32T rear cog with the 52T Porthole chainring? It’s either way not recommended to cross use the chain, correct?
KR
Viktor
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Mar 15, 2023 23:47:16 GMT
Shimano also made a Tourney in the GS form. This is the least expensive and the cage is interchangeable with the Crane and the Titlist IF you have the same generation. You can distinguish between first and second generations in that the head of the upper pivot bolt on the second gen. is smaller and has a nylon bushing under the head.
The Titlist front derailleur is excellent and works well even with most triples. The Suntour Mountech front derailleur is similar in design and is also excellent for classic bike builds.
Almost any long cage derailleur will work if you don’t care about originality. Nothing wrong with that, I’m using later Shimano derailleurs on one of my Viscounts.
Hope this helps!
Best,
John “wheelson”
|
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 16, 2023 5:13:52 GMT
What if, when I simply not use the 32T rear cog with the 52T Porthole chainring? It’s either way not recommended to cross use the chain, correct? KR Viktor I calculate a chain wrap of 28 teeth using 52/42 chainrings with 14/32 cogs. A short cage Titlist has a maximum chain wrap of 28 teeth. It should be OK to use all gears; just be careful. It is easy to have too short a chain when pushing the limits. Nevertheless, big chainring with big cog and small chainring with small cog should be avoided as a matter of good practice.
Chain Wrap = (large chainring – small chainring) + (large rear cog – small rear cog)
Cheers Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 16, 2023 10:56:03 GMT
I'm pretty sure you need to divide that by 2. The chain only goes halfway around each cog and chainring. Let's say your chainstay is 18 inches, or 36 links. Then the entire chain loop in large-large would be 36+36+26+16 = 114. Small-small is 36+36+21+7=100, a difference of 14. I think the "max 28" specification refers to the largest cog that is cleared by the RD guide pulley. Brian
EDIT: Jim, you are right in your calculation of "tooth difference capacity" as explained by Sheldon Brown and others. It is apparently how rear derailleurs are specified. In my new bicycle dictionary "tooth difference capacity" will be defined as "twice the number of links that need to be wrapped".
I still think you need to be careful about the maximum cog size the guide pulley will clear.
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 16, 2023 11:16:38 GMT
I'm pretty sure you need to divide that by 2. The chain only goes halfway around each cog and chainring. Let's say your chainstay is 18 inches, or 36 links. Then the entire chain loop in large-large would be 36+36+26+16 = 114. Small-small is 36+36+21+7=100, a difference of 14. I think the "max 28" specification refers to the largest cog that is cleared by the RD guide pulley. Brian Just for the correct numbers, I measured for the chainstay 44 cm, also 17.32 inch. My chain has 112 links. I found a simple chain length calculator and there comes the following result:  Aerospace GP chain length calculation by Viktor Deak, on Flickr That means to me, that my existing chain will work with the 52/32 situation. KR Viktor |
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 16, 2023 11:37:58 GMT
I'm pretty sure you need to divide that by 2. The chain only goes halfway around each cog and chainring. Let's say your chainstay is 18 inches, or 36 links. Then the entire chain loop in large-large would be 36+36+26+16 = 114. Small-small is 36+36+21+7=100, a difference of 14. I think the "max 28" specification refers to the largest cog that is cleared by the RD guide pulley. Brian Just for the correct numbers, I measured for the chainstay 44 cm, also 17.32 inch. My chain has 112 links. I found a simple chain length calculator and there comes the following result: Aerospace GP chain length calculation by Viktor Deak, on Flickr That means to me, that my existing chain will work with the 52/32 situation. KR Viktor I don't understand why the calculator says 57 inches. It seems it should be 55.64 inches, rounded up to 56 inches. But yes, a 112 link chain would be OK. You should probably check the condition and wear of your old chain. New chains are cheap and easy to replace, and really improve the performance of the whole drive train. If you do replace it, try a KMC Z8.1. It is an "8 speed" chain but the spacing is the same for 5 speed through 8 speed and the Z8.1 shifts very nicely and runs quiet.
Brian
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 16, 2023 11:47:04 GMT
I don't understand why the calculator says 57 inches. It seems it should be 55.64 inches, rounded up to 56 inches. But yes, a 112 link chain would be OK. You should probably check the condition and wear of your old chain. New chains are cheap and easy to replace, and really improve the performance of the whole drive train. If you do replace it, try a KMC Z8.1. It is an "8 speed" chain but the spacing is the same for 5 speed through 8 speed and the Z8.1 shifts very nicely and runs quiet.
Brian Hi Brian, thanks the advise for the chain, I'll replace it to the modell what you wrote. I love when a bike runs smoothly and quiet What do you know about the capacity of the front Titlist derailleur? What is the smallest chainring when he biggest is 52T? Many thanks in advance Viktor |
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 16, 2023 12:16:24 GMT
I don't understand why the calculator says 57 inches. It seems it should be 55.64 inches, rounded up to 56 inches. But yes, a 112 link chain would be OK. You should probably check the condition and wear of your old chain. New chains are cheap and easy to replace, and really improve the performance of the whole drive train. If you do replace it, try a KMC Z8.1. It is an "8 speed" chain but the spacing is the same for 5 speed through 8 speed and the Z8.1 shifts very nicely and runs quiet.
Brian Hi Brian, thanks the advise for the chain, I'll replace it to the modell what you wrote. I love when a bike runs smoothly and quiet What do you know about the capacity of the front Titlist derailleur? What is the smallest chainring when he biggest is 52T? Many thanks in advance Viktor Sorry, I don't know. The change from 52 to 28 sounds quite large. You might need a deeper front derailleur intended for a triple crankset. Someone on here will know.
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Mar 16, 2023 12:39:08 GMT
I’m not sure what the published specs are for the Titlist front derailleur. On my blue Viscount I’m currently running a Viscount/Lambert crankset as a triple 52-40-30 with a 14-32 5 speed freewheel shifted by a Crane GS and Shimano 333 down tube friction shifters. The bottom bracket rebuild was the original hack I posted a few years back. Everything shifts beautifully.
I haven’t updated my Flickr site, the blue Viscount photos still show the de-toothed 52 outer chainring. Hope this helps.
Best,
John “wheelson”
|
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 16, 2023 13:07:43 GMT
I’m not sure what the published specs are for the Titlist front derailleur. On my blue Viscount I’m currently running a Viscount/Lambert crankset as a triple 52-40-30 with a 14-32 5 speed freewheel shifted by a Crane GS and Shimano 333 down tube friction shifters. The bottom bracket rebuild was the original hack I posted a few years back. Everything shifts beautifully. I haven’t updated my Flickr site, the blue Viscount photos still show the de-toothed 52 outer chainring. Hope this helps. Best, John “wheelson” Hi John, many thanks for your answer, I saw your amazing solution with the little chainring, but I was not sure, that the biggest is really the 52T and a Titlist FD? With this infos I can search and buy a 30T chainring (but I think I give it a try to the 28T, who knows?). My next concern is the bolts (2 piece from 6), they are really really shitty. The hexagonal side (the "female" part) of the bolts are so shallow/low, that my tool can't grab in. I give it a try with a heat gun, maybe the female part stuck in the hole because of the heat. Worst case I have to drill them out. But until now I found only a French site what is amazing, but very pricey for a few bolts. Or they are sooo special? Have anyone 2 pieces from that?  KR Viktor |
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 16, 2023 19:16:57 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 16, 2023 21:15:25 GMT
Your bike has a derailleur hanger threaded into the frame, so the second and third derailleurs in the list (TY20, TY30) are not the best choices. They both have the riveted claw hanger,
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 16, 2023 22:17:05 GMT
Your bike has a derailleur hanger threaded into the frame, so the second and third derailleurs in the list (TY20, TY30) are not the best choices. They both have the riveted claw hanger,
Brian
But the 200CX will fit? I see correctly that my bike needs a DR with direct mount, without hanger? The hanger isn’t removable? Thanks Viktor |
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 16, 2023 23:17:34 GMT
Your bike has a derailleur hanger threaded into the frame, so the second and third derailleurs in the list (TY20, TY30) are not the best choices. They both have the riveted claw hanger,
Brian
But the 200CX will fit? I see correctly that my bike needs a DR with direct mount, without hanger? The hanger isn’t removable? Thanks Viktor The hanger is removable on some derailleurs but not the ones in the list. The hangers are riveted and there is no bolt to attach to the direct mount. Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by jazzkifli on Mar 23, 2023 11:09:05 GMT
I don't understand why the calculator says 57 inches. It seems it should be 55.64 inches, rounded up to 56 inches. But yes, a 112 link chain would be OK. You should probably check the condition and wear of your old chain. New chains are cheap and easy to replace, and really improve the performance of the whole drive train. If you do replace it, try a KMC Z8.1. It is an "8 speed" chain but the spacing is the same for 5 speed through 8 speed and the Z8.1 shifts very nicely and runs quiet.
Brian
Brian
Hi Brian, The KMC Z8.3 should work too? Thanks Viktor |
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 23, 2023 11:47:39 GMT
Hi Brian, The KMC Z8.3 should work too? Thanks Viktor Yes, any 8 speed chain will work. The Z8.3 is a bit more expensive and has a corrosion coating, I think. I replace chains after about 1000-1200 miles when the Park Chain Wear Indicator says 0.75% "stretch." I don't care about the coating and save a few dollars per chain.
Brian
|
|
