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Post by brianbutler on Jun 17, 2022 0:59:34 GMT
I am replacing the Shimano cartridge BB in my Viscount Grand Sports after only 1550 miles. During a ride today it started clicking, then clunking. Before I pulled it out I noticed play while rocking the crank arms. The cup threads into the BB shell and is supposed to support the left bearing by fitting tightly onto the outer bearing race. Somehow, the inside of the cup became worn and allowed the bearing/spindle to move back and forth. Evidently water/grit got past the outer "seal" and eroded the aluminum (bad material choice) cup. There was also quite a bit of crud inside the BB shell. My seat post is closed and there are no vents or water bottle braze-ons on the frame so it must have come in through the BB cups.
I am replacing with a Sunlite cartridge that has steel cups. I have had one of those installed in a 1984 Fuji del Rey for over 5500 miles and it is working fine.
Brian
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Post by triitout on Jun 17, 2022 1:25:36 GMT
That's a funny coincidence that it's the Gran Sports model. It's the only Viscount I also have with BB issues with. Mine is the old school ring bearings. It seems to over tighten itself after every 100 or so miles and do the grinding/clicky noise. A bit of loosening and I'm good to go. One of these days I'll need to find an alternative.
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Post by brianbutler on Feb 4, 2023 22:04:48 GMT
I'm overhauling a few of my bikes for next season, currently working on a 1984 Fuji del Rey. I had the cranks off and noticed that the Sunlite cartridge BB was a bit crunchy when turned by hand. At first I was disappointed, wondering what was the purpose of a "sealed" cartridge if it still fills with grit and wears out. Then I checked my maintenance records and found that the cartridge has been in service for about 6200 miles, so I went ahead and ordered a replacement for $18!
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Feb 4, 2023 22:51:26 GMT
I spoke too soon. So far I cannot remove the Sunlite cartridge BB to replace it. Unfortunately the right and left cups are steel and have rusted into the BB shell, despite installation with copper grease. No luck with the removal tool on a big wrench, breaker bar, and vise. I have treated it with penetrating oil so we'll see what happens tomorrow. If this turns out to be a bad problem, I will have some scrambling because I have the same part installed in three other bikes.
The Shimano parts have aluminum cups, which present another set of problems. Plus the last one I tried fell apart after 1500 miles. If this becomes a fiasco, I'll probably go back to cup and cone bearings and declare cartridges another retrograde step in bike development.
Brian
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Post by triitout on Feb 4, 2023 23:51:21 GMT
I spoke too soon. So far I cannot remove the Sunlite cartridge BB to replace it. Unfortunately the right and left cups are steel and have rusted into the BB shell, despite installation with copper grease. No luck with the removal tool on a big wrench, breaker bar, and vise. I have treated it with penetrating oil so we'll see what happens tomorrow. If this turns out to be a bad problem, I will have some scrambling because I have the same part installed in three other bikes. The Shimano parts have aluminum cups, which present another set of problems. Plus the last one I tried fell apart after 1500 miles. If this becomes a fiasco, I'll probably go back to cup and cone bearings and declare cartridges another retrograde step in bike development. Brian That's always my biggest fear when I get in the mood for an "upgrade". Some of those parts are like Rumplestlskin and just don't like to be disturbed. Kind of like the dilemma of changing your transmission fluid after 100,000 miles.  |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Feb 5, 2023 6:20:29 GMT
For old style fixed cups, I use a Hozan BB Tool and it has managed some tough ones. I get the best result by holding the tool in a vise and then turning the frame. For modern sealed bearing units with splined cups, I hold the wrench faces of the tool in a vise and then turn the frame. I am certain that Brian is aware of all of this, I just bring it up to add to the discussion.
Cheers Jim
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Post by wheelson on Feb 5, 2023 13:39:38 GMT
Good advice from Jim as always. A good penetrating oil could help, as well as all the measures for loosening a stuck seat post or stem.
Personally I like to keep it tight to the frame and use the standard tool with a long breaker bar. Try alternating between tightening and loosening with a snapping motion. The vise works well if you have the bike taken down that far, but most of the time the bikes are not that manageable as in mostly built.
At the shop the owner is really into air tools, and a pneumatic ratchet will likely do the trick. Not good for my head, though. đł
Best,
John âwheelsonâ
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Post by brianbutler on Feb 5, 2023 14:24:50 GMT
Overnight soak in Evaporust was not successful, at least not with the breaker bar. I have some other things to do today so I'll let it soak another 12 hours. If that doesn't work I'll apply penetrating oil overnight and try all available tools (breaker, vise) tomorrow morning. Finally I might take it to the gas station and see if they can twist it out with an impact wrench. In the mean time, I am going to try to remove this part from the three other bikes that have it installed and either return them to cup and cone BB's or grease the heck out of the cartridge before re-installing. On the subject of cartridge BB's, has anyone tried these?
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Feb 5, 2023 17:25:38 GMT
Overnight soak in Evaporust was not successful, at least not with the breaker bar. I have some other things to do today so I'll let it soak another 12 hours. If that doesn't work I'll apply penetrating oil overnight and try all available tools (breaker, vise) tomorrow morning. Finally I might take it to the gas station and see if they can twist it out with an impact wrench. In the mean time, I am going to try to remove this part from the three other bikes that have it installed and either return them to cup and cone BB's or grease the heck out of the cartridge before re-installing. On the subject of cartridge BB's, has anyone tried these?
Brian
I once used my impact gun on a tough BB; be careful not to slip!
Cheers Jim
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Post by wheelson on Feb 5, 2023 21:47:35 GMT
That Omni bottom bracket looks well-made. I believe it has ISO tapers, close to the old Campagnolo. I wonder if they would work better with the Lambert/Viscount crank arms than the more common JIS of Shimano?
Best,
John âwheelsonâ
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Post by brianbutler on Feb 6, 2023 2:50:50 GMT
That Omni bottom bracket looks well-made. I believe it has ISO tapers, close to the old Campagnolo. I wonder if they would work better with the Lambert/Viscount crank arms than the more common JIS of Shimano? Best, John âwheelsonâ Actually, they come in JIS or ISO. On this page, the ones with the yellow bands are ISO and the red ones are JIS:
I like the way the product line is laid out.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Feb 6, 2023 3:06:32 GMT
Thanks, I didnât see that, we have our four year old grandson over today and itâs been a bit busy to say the least. One thing I need to do is try one of my Campagnolo bottom bracket spindles with a Lambert and/or Viscount crank to see how it fits, although Iâve had no trouble with JIS. I have a couple of titanium spindles that would work but Iâm hesitant to use them as have no idea of the TI grade. Old bones heal slowly and Iâm way over my quota in the concussion protocol.
Best,
John âwheelsonâ
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Post by brianbutler on Feb 6, 2023 14:19:22 GMT
Success. This morning, after immersing the BB for 36 hours in Evapo-Rust, the cups yielded by first tightening until I heard a ping, then backing them out (still quite stiff.) The cup threads are completely packed with rust. Here is my setup for Evapo-Rust immersion. I also cover it with a sheet of foil to reduce evaporation.
After removing the BB cartridge, I put the BB shell back into the Evapo-Rust bath for another 24 hours. This should completely clean the internal threads and I'll make this a standard operating procedure for future BB work.
Unfortunately I also learned a hard lesson or two. During one attempt to remove the BB cups I mounted the removal tool in the vise and used the bike for leverage. The force was enough to begin rounding the edge between flats on the tool. This created a cam with enough pressure to damage the acme screw in the vise, ending its 75 year life. It was an old Craftsman that had served several generations. I might keep it in case I get ambitious and try to restore it sometime. A new vise will be delivered tomorrow. I had to settle for a "pretty good" one because shop grade bench vises sell for north of $600, which is well outside my budget. I am also replacing the removal tool with a better quality one. Tuition paid.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Feb 6, 2023 15:59:10 GMT
Success always has a cost, I guess. Tools are a weakness of mine, especially vintage. Bike specific tools are a bit hard to find at yard sales and flea markets (jumbles).
A vise can be a large investment. I remember the four huge Columbian vises at the shop I worked at back in the 1960âs. They dated from the late 1800âs and were probably indestructible.
I like your method for the bottom bracket removal. Evaporust is good stuff indeed.
Best,
John âwheelsonâ
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Post by brianbutler on Feb 6, 2023 16:44:04 GMT
I want a vise big and strong enough to pinch a locomotive while I change the bearings.
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Feb 7, 2023 0:29:52 GMT
I want a vise big and strong enough to pinch a locomotive while I change the bearings. Amen!
Cheers Jim
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