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Post by triitout on Nov 21, 2020 23:04:16 GMT
www.greencarreports.com/news/1130352_uk-steps-up-plan-for-ev-transition-new-gasoline-cars-banned-from-2035How are EV's being viewed in the UK? Is charging outside the home practical? Do dealers actually promote them and are they readily available? Will this create backlash? Here in the northeast US, the answers are poorly, no, no and probably yes if there was a ban on gas cars. I hope things will change under Biden. My experience with a Nissan LEAF over 3+ years is they make excellent commuter/short trip cars. Has anyone else made the switch? If yes, have you also added solar panels so you'd be driving on sunshine? 
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Post by franco on Nov 21, 2020 23:32:23 GMT
I’m my honest layman’s view, at present we don’t have the infrastructure for it. Most traditional housing has no driveway or front garden space, cables would be obstructing public walkways. Sometimes it’s impossible to park your vehicle even near your house.
There would have to be garages you could charge your vehicle at and how long would that take?
Personally I don’t care, I only drive a vehicle for occupational purposes and would gladly get rid of it given the chance.
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Nov 22, 2020 1:31:27 GMT
California has the same poorly thought out plan. In California, this proposal is welcomed in urban areas and despised in rural areas. Most of our electricity is generated by fossil fuel; so what is the difference? Do we have enough minerals to build the batteries? At the very least mining would have to be increased. California moves to end sales of new gas-powered cars
In California, we do not have enough electrical generating capacity as it is. This results in rolling blackouts on hot days. Our governor says solar energy will make up the difference, but most electric cars will be charged at night. I do think we can make it work if we perfect fusion reactors.
Personally, I think algae biofuels (which are carbon neutral) are the way to go. Our existing fuel distribution system, as well as cars, trucks, power plants and home heating can be modified to burn this fuel. Nevertheless, no solution is perfect.
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Post by triitout on Nov 22, 2020 4:21:07 GMT
Sometimes I think 2035 is way off in the future and other times I think how quickly things are changing. In my humble analysis, I think it all comes down to following the money. Remember when the Japanese sent us Toyota, Honda, and Nissan and we thought they couldn't compete with GM, Ford, and Chrysler? The Chinese electric car industry in the near future may be just like the Japanese car invasion. VW has bet the farm on electric. Hummer is coming back as electric. GM and Ford say they are all in when it comes to the future being electric and if they are spending big bucks as they appear to be doing on EVs, it will happen. There is more marketing showing to create the buzz and desire to switch to EVs. Will it work??? For this to be accepted and embraced, a few very big things have to happen in the next 10-15 years. Battery prices and energy density have to get to the point they are cheeper than ICE cars and have equal to greater range and ability to charge rapidly. Renewable energy and battery storage have to continue to evolve with greater generation and capacity as the cost compared to other fuels continues to drop. The charging infrastructure currently does not work for urban dwellers in high density areas with no access to home charging. Charging will have to match the convenience and accessibility of "gas up and go". I hope we are all around to see if all these issues will be solved in the next decade or EVs stay a niche product and people just keep the old gas cars going forever just like in Cuba.  |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Nov 22, 2020 7:18:37 GMT
just keep the old gas cars going forever just like in Cuba. That is what I plan. |
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Post by wheelson on Nov 22, 2020 12:22:47 GMT
just keep the old gas cars going forever just like in Cuba. That is what I plan. Me too, Jim. We’re a two car family, my 2015 Jeep gets less than 5K miles per year, and I will likely drive it until one of us falls apart. Mrs.W’s 4 cylinder vehicle gets around 30 MPG. Our work commutes have never been more than 20 miles round trip. Point here is usage. Money of course is the key. As a (retired) electrical/ electronics engineer, I’ve always had a keen interest in electric vehicles, solar power, and environmental solutions. Sad to say, we’re nowhere near the point of a transfer from fossil fuels to electric, mandate or not. Relying on Chinese electric anything is not the answer since those environment-saving products are produced in the worst pollution-creating factories on the planet. Quote from a former colleague: “we always know what product the paint factory upstream is making on a given day, that’s the color the river changes to”. We cannot blindly solve one problem by creating an equally dangerous one. Again, it’s all about to cost of the product and the infrastructure to support it. It cannot be a gigantic leap to totally green when incremental steps can get us there without bankrupting the individual and the nation. Note that if an affordable alternative was there rather than a monster electric SUV that costs more than a house, perhaps the masses would flock to the showrooms. Sensible alternatives? My brother-in-law has a Prius, combination gas and electric. Charges the batteries while driving. Gets about 50 mpg. That’s an alternative to “all or none”. Make existing technology affordable and you’re halfway there to green. “Education not legislation”, the latter doesn’t seem to be working well on our West Coast, USA. End of rant. John “wheelson” |
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Post by brianbutler on Nov 22, 2020 13:48:03 GMT
Here are two facts that illustrate why I have not considered an EV yet:
1. I drive a gas-powered 4 cylinder 2014 Honda Accord that routinely gets 40 mpg locally and about 42 mpg on long highway trips. I keep it on the "Eco" setting because I have no need to accelerate from zero to 60 at all, let alone in a single-digit number of seconds. I am not a car guy and I am generally tired of cars and driving of any kind. It just seem like a clunky, stinky, expensive, dangerous way to get around. Witness clogged highways full of commuters carrying their 3 pound brains to the office in 3000 pound containers, and spending an hour twice a day doing it. Perhaps the COVID pandemic will start to change that.
2. A music friend works for the state of Rhode Island as an environmental engineer. He bought an EV and charging setup for his home. He says electricity (from the grid, not solar) costs him somewhat MORE than what he previously paid for gasoline. There seems to be a widely held belief that electric charging is free. In many cases it is free to the car owner - for now. I am interested to see if employers, stores, etc. continue providing free charging as usage scales up.
I know there are external costs to both fossil fuels and green alternatives. I don't know enough about that to factor it into my considerations.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Nov 22, 2020 15:47:06 GMT
I could also tie in the big and getting bigger demand for electric bikes and trikes. At the shop I contract with, demand is increasing by leaps and bounds. It seems everyone is interested until they hear the price tag. Quality electric bikes are not cheap, even retrofits are pushing 1K$US. The alternative? Cheap import "department store" bikes. We assemble quite a few, downside is usually no documentation, no support, missing parts, electronic units that don't work . . . Even our major brands have yet to offer any sort of training. Of note, these electric bikes we sell, retrofit, or assemble are not typically replacing gas-burning cars, just making someone's ride easier or possible.
Unfortunately, I see the whole support system for electric cars to be the same at this time. No local auto shops are going to touch a repair, only the dealer whose charges have never been known as a bargain.
I wish it were otherwise, that we could make an immediate transition to clean energy. But this, like so many other things, will take time and a change in mindset. And not just the USA, GB, and the "Continent". Remember all those photos of acres of discarded Chinese bikes? The owners just MOVED UP to the luxury of a gas burning vehicle, and they are not likely wanting to regress to something less. Like bikes can vary across the spectrum, I think vehicular energy has room for all types, from gas, natural gas, hybrid gas/electric, electric. What we need is affordable innovation. As my old co-worker and friend Dave used to say "fill the unfilled need and the world with make a path to your door".
Best,
John
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Post by brianbutler on Nov 22, 2020 16:54:08 GMT
My small step so far has been replacing my gas chain saw with a battery powered one. it is more than adequate for the jobs I do, and no more mixing and storing fuel, wearing earplugs, or smelling like 2-cycle exhaust for the rest of the day. Plus the smaller 14-inch blade prevents me from trying anything stupid.
I'm pretty sure my next lawn mower will be electric for many of the reasons cited above.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Nov 22, 2020 18:03:27 GMT
My small step so far has been replacing my gas chain saw with a battery powered one. it is more than adequate for the jobs I do, and no more mixing and storing fuel, wearing earplugs, or smelling like 2-cycle exhaust for the rest of the day. Plus the smaller 14-inch blade prevents me from trying anything stupid. I'm pretty sure my next lawn mower will be electric for many of the reasons cited above. Brian Good one, Brian. I have an electric chain saw, not battery but plug-in. Like you, the lawnmower is next. Gets to be fun. To me, plastics are a big problem. We recycle all the city will take, as well as glass and newspapers. Some plastics they won’t take. Health situations willing and I do another year at the bike shop, that’s a 10 mile round trip on the local bike trail. “Victory garden” already planned for next year. We’re getting there! Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by dracco on Nov 22, 2020 19:00:31 GMT
The proposal refers to new cars. I've never bought a new car in my life.
Of course we could still be using gas in our cars for a long time beyond 2035: it's just that the gas will be hydrogen.
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Nov 22, 2020 19:12:46 GMT
Gas stations can burn, but so can electric cars. Imagine this in your garage.
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Post by triitout on Nov 22, 2020 19:38:21 GMT
Many good points and opinions. An interesting discussion indeed. I've had a strong interest in environmental economics going back to college. I've always been of the opinion that a central role of govt is public safety. If you see climate change as a threat to public safety, there is a legitimate reason to encourage preventive climate mitigation along with disaster relief. The big question is what tools are most effective to foster change in a realistic, non disruptive manner? Public policy that economically incentivizes the adoption of renewable energy and EVs, electric mowers etc counts on people making a decision in their own best interests. Using myself as an example, I took full advantage of federal, state, and local utility tax credits and rebates to purchase my rooftop solar and electric car. With those incentives, the payback time for my solar made sense (7-8 years) as did buying a new Nissan LEAF for about $13000. Even my EVGO electric lawnmower came with a rebate. I much prefer people making the choice themselves once economic incentives are evaluated. The heavy handedness of a mandate with dates that are not grounded in reality as far as product development and practicality probably due more harm than good with the perception that govt is interfering with our lives. If you believe that climate change is truly an emergency in public safety and economic incentives are not enough to change behavior in a significant way, then all roads end up leading to mandates unfortunately. For myself, global changes brought on by climate change is a source of stress and don't laugh, often a feeling of helplessness. Being able to take even small personal steps gives one at least some sense of control. Just the fact that a group of strangers brought together by a 1970's-80's bankrupt British bicycle company are having this discussion is a positive! Here's my take that I would encourage for consideration. If you are a two car family that uses one locally and you have access to home charging, consider an EV. You will love not going to the gas station and no need for oil changes or for that matter most maintenance done for gas cars. I recently read that the "cost of ownership of the LEAF was the lowest of all cars out there. If you have a roof with the right orientation, run the numbers on payback time or even a loan to own at the same $ cost as you currently pay. I love getting $12-45 monthly bills and knowing it will soon be all paid for. And lastly for Brian, I'd recommend EVGO electric rechargeable battery mowers. I went from a FISKERS mechanical mower to the EVGO this summer and it's been great. Change is incremental. This has been a great time stall but it's time to get on my indoor trainer beater bike Aerospace GP and see if my NY Jets can go 0-10! Cheer, Michael PS, It's long but interesting take on 2020 EV outlook from a global perspective. www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2020 |
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Post by triitout on Nov 22, 2020 19:42:05 GMT
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,391 
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Post by Jem on Nov 22, 2020 20:29:23 GMT
Very interesting thread. Been reading all comments with interest and learned some things here.
There is something of a 'profile raising' , marketing push in the Uk on EV's at the moment. However, the price is out of reach for many and the logistics in the UK mean that it just wouldn't work for the majority.
But, that doesn't mean that I think it's unachievable. This pandemic has highlighted that deeply ingrained habits and ways of working can be changed almost overnight , should the need arise. So, I am sure a way could be found to create much less CO2 if there was a will to.
After all, many companies in the UK that have physical premises , totally re-thought 'working from home' that they said wasn't possible until the need arose through CV19. In fact the benefits they gained from letting the bricks and mortar go, mean that many are now slimming down and going 100% working from home. That alone has cut out large number of journeys made by car.
Unfortunately (and trying to steer clear of politics on a forum), if rich people with influence are not seeing the $ for themselves in any move, then they will hang on to petrol for as long as it takes and it needs a state level take over of transport and such infrastructure. So, you either incentivise it, or you nationalise it. I don't see any other options folks.
Now, whatever your political views on that, if it looks like we are destroying the environment to the point of the earth being unsustainable to a biodiverse eco-system, just because of a subscription to one or 2 particular sources of fuel, then we need a wake up to the reality of that and accept that we are buggering it up beyond repair by our actions.
And let's not forget that until very recently, big business, some politicians, lobby groups were all saying that climate change was fake/hoax /not true. Many of these were those with shares in the companies and processes that contributed to the rise in global temperature.
I read a book by Rachel Carson a couple of years back , written in the early 1960's , called Silent Spring. If you get chance check it out, lots of good points, ahead of her time on writing about the environment.
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