|
|
Post by mckfam on Aug 27, 2020 19:53:15 GMT
Hello All,
Found you today and decided to join. Had no clue there were people that still knew what a Viscount bike was.
I bought a brand new red and white Viscount on Rock road in Saint Louis Missouri in March of 1977. Traded in my old Schwinn Super Sport that I got when I was 13 as it was too heavy. I was serving on a 2 year mission for my church and we rode everywhere. I rode this bike over 7000 miles in 2 years and loved it. The bike is pretty much original (including the forks) except the seat, (wore out) the tires of course the handle bar tape and back rim as I had to replace it in 1978 as it got damaged (Looks original). I have kept it all of these years and now and then would put new tires on it and putter around on it. Recently I got it up and running again and my 22 year old son who is 6'5" and 220 pounds has been riding it. (I am 6'4" and 230 so the bike is used to big guys) He thinks it is cool. BUT yesterday as he was riding it he snapped the crank clean off at the bearing on the right side (Chain side). He took a tumble and almost got run over. Some good road rash to show for it too. So now I need I guess a crank? I am not a bike expert but I am an engineer so I have done all the work on all my bikes. BUT I have never done a crank. And the bearings are also original.
So my question, and I hope someone can help me is, what do I need? Can I buy just the post or crank portion that connects the 2 petal arms and runs through the frame with bearings on both sides? If so where? I see some parts on Ebay but I am not sure if they are correct. Looks right but don't want to spend money just to have it not fit or work with my model. I guess it would be helpful to go home and see what model bike I have but it has the rounded looking holes on the tooth part of the crank where the petal attaches. Sorry for my non technical knowledge. BUT I am guessing you all know exactly what I am talking about.
Would love some advice and how to fix this bike. It is (was) in good shape other than the crank. Hard to believe I have had the bike over 43 years. I live in Gilbert Arizona and look forward to hearing what you have to say. I will go home tonight and see what it says. Seem silly but I rode it for 2 years straight and you would think I would know the model. Think it just says Viscount aerospace. I know it came in red and white and blue and white. I took the red.
Thanks and best to all
McKFam
|
|
rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
|
Post by rodh on Aug 27, 2020 20:51:25 GMT
I guess it's the spindle that's broken ... most have a circlip slot that a crack can start from. This will need to be replaced. Originals are hard to come by, but substitutes from Klein or Phil Wood can be found online (> $100!). The dimensions I have in my notes are 17mm diameter crank spindle, 120-122 mm long, 22 tpi 5/16" BSF thread, but you'll find more details in the measurements sticky in the technical area. If you can't find what you need, consider John Wilson's (user: Wheelson) bottom bracket hack ... a 68mm/122mm Sunlite bottom bracket cartridge (might be SL-26, but that's JIS taper) can be bought for - $30, (or double that for titanium!), and dismembered for its spindle which has a 17mm ground section for the normal Viscount/Lambert bearings. Again, more details in the technical area, this time under bottom bracket hack, but you can see the results here: www.flickr.com/photos/wheelson2011/albums/72157686793837471Note, Steve Busaste (user: Busaste) reports a 125mm spindle is a good length to achieve the ideal 41.5mm chainline but the next Sunlite size up that I know of is 127mm ... hopefully he'll chip in soon. Either way, you'll need a decent bearing puller and press to fit the new ones, so be prepared for some effort! Given the age of the bearings, these shoukd be replaced too (6003-2RS), but this opens up another option ... You could fit a complete bottom bracket cartridge provided you're OK with grinding out any excess tube stubs that protrude into the spindle area. After that, there are two options I've heard being used ... one, threadless, which works best if the frame is refaced (chamfered) to make a seat that centres the cartridge (Velo Orange?), the other, threaded (Italian), although this must be done with great care as the tube wall is thin ... I think John Cockaday (user: Cusqueno) has an Aerospace Pro done this way and may reply soon. Hope this helps, Rod |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Aug 27, 2020 21:31:31 GMT
Yes, to everything that Rod says. If you go the bottom shell grinding of excess tube stubs or the threading to Italian, I highly recommend a well-known Arizona framebuilder, Omar Khiel who is located about 35 miles from you in Glendale. oasiscustomcycles.com/ I have dealt with him in the past and have corresponded with him over on the Classic Rendezvous list for years where he is active. He has a reputation for being very reasonable for all his work, custom frames, repair work, and painting. And, yes, my hack that Rod mentioned above seems to be holding up well on my Viscount, although I haven't put a lot of miles on it because of some medical issues I'm having. Please keep us informed and we will certainly be glad to help you all we can. This is a very friendly list here. Best, John "wheelson" Wilson |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Aug 28, 2020 13:18:49 GMT
Rod has mentioned that the Sunlite bottom bracket unit used in my hack does not appear to be available in the optimum 122mm length. My best 72 year old memory seemed to recall a 122.5 version but it may have indeed been the 127mm. That may have worked out best for me since I'm running that bike as a triple where the original Viscounts were doubles.
That bike is currently hanging in my garage and if I can worm my way to get a measurement this weekend, I will. I'm also currently working on my "pseudo-Supa" which has the Viscount bottom bracket shell but will need the 1st generation black Dura Ace (double) crankset installed. I'll update this hack as it occurs, hopefully with a bit better documentation!
Best,
John "wheelson"
|
|
|
|
Post by cusqueno on Aug 28, 2020 13:42:49 GMT
Some extra stuff about the Viscount bottom bracket spindle and replacing it: viscount-lambert-bikes.blogspot.com/2011/viscount-lambert-bikes.blogspot.com/2011/02/ Includes some photos showing how the tubes protrude into the bottom bracket shell, making it impossible to fit modern bb cartridges without some grinding. Incidentally, in my experience, inexpensive 'threadless' bb cartridges (YST?), (designed to be used when the thread has stripped but equally useful when there was no thread, such as these Viscounts), are just as good as the expensive Velo Orange ones. |
|
rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
|
Post by rodh on Aug 28, 2020 21:17:05 GMT
Thanks John, I think YST and Sunlite may be the same manufacturer (see SJS in the UK:, or ModernBIKE in the US), and their SL55 and SL26 are just following the naming convention Shimano uses for its sealed bottom bracket cartridges (UN26 and UN55). In other words, either will probably work assuming the 68/122.5mm version is used as a donor. Hope this helps. Rod |
|
|
|
Post by triitout on Aug 28, 2020 21:52:02 GMT
When it comes to safety and reliability, cheap can end up being expensive. My money is on the Velo Orange Grand Cru threadless BB. I've got one going strong with several thousand miles and it's smooth as silk. I remember Busaste having issues with the YST version. If you are not mechanically inclined, just have your LBS grind out the tubes that protrude into the BB shell area and fit the VO if you go that route. You'll have one less thing to worry about.
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Aug 29, 2020 1:12:46 GMT
I still have this nagging question about placing the square non-tapered Viscount crankset onto a square tapered spindle. How do seat it properly? My error might be thinking the Viscount crankset is non-tapered but for some reason that seems etched in my mind.
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Aug 29, 2020 3:56:52 GMT
I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that as I'm still a Lambert/Viscount rookie but wasn't there several versions of both the crankset and the spindle? I know the early Lambert cranks had a recessed concave end to the crank and a matching convex washer and the spindle was indeed flat. The later Viscount cranks have a flat mating surface with the bolt, and that's the kind I have. Mine cranks visually appear to have a taper although I can't say this wasn't induced after the fact by a file and some machinists blue.
I do know also that some of the spindles appear different, some with one or even two lines around the circumference on the drive side. Again, I really don't know, but I do know that I've had no problems with the ones I have working with the tapered spindles.
One last observance/question: the Supa bikes use a 1st generation black Shimano Dura Ace crankset and was advertised as having the Viscount sealed bearing bottom bracket. That would indicate to me that there was some legitimate Viscount spindle/tapered crankset interface, no?
Enquiring minds do indeed want to know!
Best,
John "wheelson"
|
|
|
|
Post by triitout on Aug 29, 2020 12:08:58 GMT
I still have this nagging question about placing the square non-tapered Viscount crankset onto a square tapered spindle. How do seat it properly? My error might be thinking the Viscount crankset is non-tapered but for some reason that seems etched in my mind. Brian Somewhere on the forum, I posted an old Bicycling Magazine review of the Viscount Aerospace lineup. They specifically note the use of a tapered crankset. I believe the non tapered went out with Lambert |
|
|
|
Post by mckfam on Aug 29, 2020 14:58:21 GMT
Wow thanks for all your comments. Appreciate them. I have a few toy cars but I am a rookie on bikes. Yes it is a spindle Duh!!! I will get there. I could not think of the word except crank. Hey I was close. I will come around. I am figuring out all the acronyms that you all have thrown and me too.
Thanks for the specs, and options that are out there. I am thinking that I will try to find an original spindle or one that will work with out having to to do major surgery on the bike. The bike has only the Viscount stickers on it but based on what I am seeing I am pretty sure it is an Aerospace model. Rings a 43 year old bell too.
So if anyone had a spindle they would like to sell please let me know. I am too old to worry about saving a few bucks but spending countless hour on something that I may mess up anyway. If I can't find one then I will go with plan B. Thanks for all the suggestions.
Wheelson I talked to Omar and he is a really nice man. He may be able to help me if I can find the parts. Also he suggested another spindle but I can not find it. I think he said Mayvek (Sp?) Not in business but he said there were a lot of them still lurking around on Ebay etc. I can not find that but I may have the spelling wrong or I heard him incorrectly. Any clue? Looks to be another option if Plan A falls through
Cusqueno those blogs were very helpful. That broken spindle looked very familiar. Probably will use them if I find some parts and decide to do surgery on my own.
Please let me know if anyone has a spindle they want to sell.
I have too much work and a large family so this is fun to take a break. (they are asleep right now) Fun to see there are others still interested in these old bikes. Thanks again for your comments and help.
Take Care
McKFam
|
|
|
|
Post by triitout on Aug 29, 2020 17:17:01 GMT
Forgot to mention that your model is the Aerospace GP which came in white with either blue or red on the seat and head tube. If you want to get back the original look, you can find the decals at www.velocals.com. |
|
rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
|
Post by rodh on Aug 29, 2020 18:17:30 GMT
I've never seen a straight sided square Lambert crank ... I've heard of them, but never had to deal with one.
Perhaps Steve can confirm the vintage of these.
I have seen ancient TA Specialities "cotterless" cranks with straight sides, but they also had a kind of wedge to pull them tight, and not just a dished end, and I don't think Lambert used that ... patented maybe?
There has been debate about whether the Lambert/Viscout square taper is JIS or ISO spec. Current thinking is they are ISO, and this applies to those with 2 circlip grooves as well as the older ones with 3 (which seem to be more prone to cracking).
Although both standards use the same taper angle, effectively the width is different, so if using a mismatched spindle and crankarm it will pull through slightly too much or too little. Best to check the spindle does not protrude as far as flush with where the bolt seats (else it does not put tension on the taper). This may only become visible after tightening, and if it does, all is not lost! ... it can be rescued with a washer enlarged by filing to a square "ID" slightly bigger than the end of the taper.
Hope this helps,
Rod
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Aug 29, 2020 20:07:17 GMT
Again, Rod has excellent data and advice. I looked over my spares and odds and ends and agree that the taper does most closely match the ISO spec. Campagnolo tapers of this vintage were ever so slightly different from ISO and there are actually two different JIS taper lengths, short and long. sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html In my hack, I believe I used the JIS taper but it did not protrude too far outward. I also have a YST threadless sealed bb and it appears to be JIS long. It also appears to be not quite as smooth as I would like. I also measured several beat up Viscount bb spindles and they appear to be 122mm overall end-to-end. As far as the straight taper Lambert crank/spindle, I have seen these listed on US eBay, one recently but now gone. It was distinguished, I believe, by the concave crank square ends and a matching convex washer. I have one of those washers somewhere that I got with a Lambert odd parts lot. The last one I saw on eBay had a TA outer ring so I don't know if it came with the "porthole" chainring or not. I have several (worn) porthole rings, some are stamped Lambert, some are not. Again, I'm not much of a Lambert/Viscount expert so I'm just throwing a lot of observations out there. Mckfam: That spindle Omar mentioned would be Mavic. I believe they are relatively scarce. Do an eBay search for sealed bottom bracket axles and one might turn up, as well as some interesting titanium ones. Ideally, you'll want one for a 68mm bottom bracket shell. Best, John "wheelson" |
|
|
|
Post by cusqueno on Aug 30, 2020 9:55:26 GMT
Yes. Those Mavic ‘threadless’ cartridges aren’t that common and tend to be relatively expensive (up to around $100?). They also require each end of the bb shell to be ground at 45 degrees. Probably not much bother for a well-equipped bike shop, but beyond most our abilities/ facilities at home!
|
|
|
|
Post by cusqueno on Aug 30, 2020 10:06:49 GMT
mckfam - you might like to check out the Cycling UK forum, which has a long Viscount thread going back to 2009: forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21010&hilit=ViscountThis thread has nearly 140 pages and our forum was created in part to make the information there more easily accessible. Nevertheless there is a lot of info on the CUK thread and nice photos. You do not have to join or sign up to view. |
|
|
|
Post by sirjoe on Sept 14, 2020 14:32:43 GMT
I'm glad I checked in. I have two Viscount framesets hanging on the wall that I hope to get to this Winter, and they will both need attention to the bottom brackets. So, thanks to the group for your willingness to share your knowledge and helpful hints. Stay well, all.
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Sept 27, 2020 13:47:19 GMT
More crank talk. I have disassembled the Middlebury Aerospace Pro except for the bottom bracket and crank, where I ran into to problems. Something bad happened to this bike sometime in the past. The right crank arm is a TA Pro 5, same as the one used with the Viscount porthole chain sets. However, it is branded TA Specialties, not Viscount. I think this is a replacement because it appears to have French pedal threading. The English threaded Viscount pedal came out with a lot of resistance and the threads in the crank show some damage. Someone may have tried the same thing on the left crank and gotten it completed messed up. That arm has been replaced by a non-matching one with English pedal threads.
The left crank arm came off with a 22mm crank puller. The right side needs a 23mm TA crank puller (which I do not own, but might get if I am going to work on more Viscount and Lambert cranks.) It looks like someone tried pulling the right crank with a 22mm puller and there is slight damage to the threads. I think the 23mm would still have enough bite but I might pull it off externally with a gear puller.
The bottom bracket is the original Viscount press fit.
So now the games begin with several options:
1. Obtain a TA left crank arm with English pedal threading or tap out a French one.
2. Obtain a complete TA Pro 5 crankset (maybe even a triple) and use the porthole chain rings for aesthetics.
3. Use one of the nice Japanese crank sets I have on the shelf. Can't use the porthole chain rings in this scenario.
I haven't decided what to do about the BB after I knock it out but I am leaning toward replacing it with a sealed BB. Not keen on tapping the BB for a threaded unit so I would probably used the Velo Orange unit for unthreaded BB's.
Suggestions?
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Sept 27, 2020 14:24:48 GMT
I had a similar problem; this was my solution.
Best of luck! Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Sept 27, 2020 15:46:53 GMT
Nice write-up, Jim. And a very nice result.
Unfortunately, I think I am done with my Middlebury Pro. While working on removing the spindle I discovered and possibly created or exacerbated a crack in the seat tube BB joint. My guess is that this is not worth fixing. I'll still refurbish the parts and keep them for next time. I netted a nice leather Viscount saddle, long cage Shimano 600 RD, Suntour Perfect 5 freewheel, Viscount hubs, and some other good parts. Plus I had fun going to pick up the bike.
Time to hit the road and burn off about 40 miles worth of disappointment.
BRian
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Sept 27, 2020 20:05:05 GMT
The ride settled me down. I might see if I can get the joint repaired. There is a very good welder just down the road that I have used for delicate projects before. Maybe repairing a fillet brazed joint is not a big deal.
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Sept 28, 2020 4:43:21 GMT
Tough to hear about the cracked in the seat tube. I've read that this is not an uncommon Viscount trait. Good news is that a cracked tube here doesn't usually show up as a catastrophic failure like a snapped bb spindle or a broken fork, steerer tube, or handlebar.
A good welder can probably fix this, it won't be as good cosmetically but that location isn't too noticeable anyway. Sometime in the mid-1970's I rescued a Schwinn Continental frame from destruction by the Schwinn rep. The owner was on tour and the left dropout/chain stay had broken at the original weld. He took it to a local muffler repair shop where the bike was TIG welded back together. The guy finished his tour and as Schwinn did in those days provided a new replacement frame. I saved the old frame for "display purposes" and at some point built up the bike for my future sister-in-law. She rode the bike for many trouble free years, and as far as I know, it's still going strong somewhere out there.
That's the beauty of steel, can't do that (easily) with aluminum or carbon. Personally, I'd have it TIG'd instead of a brass fillet, less heat and chance of overheating the steel around the joint, and most lower temp silver brazing is not suitable for fillets and is quite expensive.
Best,
John "wheelson"
|
|
|
|
Post by grosh on Oct 10, 2020 7:47:30 GMT
I've also found out that Sunrace spindles are 17mm in diameter and if you dismantle their cartridge bottom bracket the spindle can be used albeit in does not have the circlip grooves.
|
|
rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
|
Post by rodh on Oct 22, 2020 23:16:25 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Oct 23, 2020 1:59:02 GMT
In the next couple of days I am doing this myself but with a twist. I disassembled the 68x122 Sunlite BB and it does have a 17mm spindle. However, the machined surfaces are too close together. The spindle is also slightly asymmetrical, a little longer on the drive side. This, in conjunction with the placement of the "stop" on the spindle puts the new drive side bearing at the perfect position. However the left side bearing ends up almost exactly 5mm too far outboard. It does not completely seat on the machined surface. I think using the innards from a 73x122 BB will work almost perfectly. I will post on this forum as soon as I know for sure.
Brian
|
|
rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
|
Post by rodh on Oct 23, 2020 16:05:08 GMT
Thanks Brian ... so both Sunlite and Sunrace have possibilities ... thanks for sharing all this.
Grosh, can you share any measurements or photos of the Sunrace part you used (and a part #)?
In particular, I'm wondering if it has the same "shoulder" position issue Brian mentions above.
Thanks,
Rod
PS. I hear the NTN 6003LLU C3 bearings are good for this (class 4 by default means smooth and long lasting)
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Oct 26, 2020 18:45:37 GMT
Today I checked the Sunlite 73x122 BB to see if it solves the shoulder problem. It does not because the 68mm and 73mm BB's use identical spindles and bearing placement, simply changing the threaded "cups" to make up the difference. I think there is a reasonable workaround, as follows. Press the drive side bearing onto the 122mm spindle all the way to the shoulder. Press this assembly into the drive side of the BB shell, 3mm past the edge of the shell. This will provide original drive side position of the taper. Then press the left side bearing onto the spindle and into the shell, all the way to the shoulder. This is also 3mm beyond the edge of the shell and positions the left taper about 3mm further out than original. Better too much than too little. The net result is that both bearings are fully and correctly seated on the spindle and the drive side spacing is correct. The only downside is that the outer side of both bearings will be sunken into the shell about 3mm, more of an aesthetic problem than anything else. Here is a photo of the original spindle assembly with bearings pressed to the position dictated by the circlip grooves, along with the Sunlite spindle with bearings pressed to the shoulders. You can see that the bearings on the new spindle are slightly inside those on the old one. Also note that the right side tapers line up (bottom of photo). Finally, the left side taper is slightly outside the original position (top of photo).
|
|
|
|
Post by mckfam on Mar 25, 2022 19:22:47 GMT
Hello All,
Been a lovely couple of years. I work and collect kids and cars. Very busy at my home. This bike means a lot to me so I really wanted to get it back to riding condition. So here is an update since I last posted over a year and half ago.
My original question was about my broken spindle. All the comments were very much appreciated. After much searching and looking and asking questions I actually was able to procure an original replacement spindle for my 1977 Viscount Aerospace GP. Now I need to just figure out how to get it put in and the old one taken out. I called Omar again he says he does not have a tool to do it so he has recommended a place here in the Phoenix area that he thinks should be able to do that. I will take the bike in on Monday to find out. If not then I may need some help as to how to do it. I see some great instructions and helpful ways to do this in this thread but I do not have the tools to do that.
I will keep you posted but if any of you have any ideas or anyone you may know of in the Phoenix area that might be able to help me with the spindle would be helpful. I have talked to Omar and Landus Bikes.
Hope all is well with you all.
McKfam
|
|
|
|
Post by mckfam on Mar 25, 2022 19:26:00 GMT
Duh!! forgot the other question I wanted to ask. I see the spindle bearings have a number of 6003-2RS I found them here in Phoenix. $16.35 Each. There are 30 of them in stock.
Question: What is the bearings number for the wheels? Are they the same as the spindle? If not does anyone have the bearing number. Would appreciate any help here.
Thanks
McKfam
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Mar 25, 2022 21:25:51 GMT
Duh!! forgot the other question I wanted to ask. I see the spindle bearings have a number of 6003-2RS I found them here in Phoenix. $16.35 Each. There are 30 of them in stock. Question: What is the bearings number for the wheels? Are they the same as the spindle? If not does anyone have the bearing number. Would appreciate any help here. Thanks McKfam Front wheels - 629RS Rear wheels - 6000RS
A couple of points on economy:
If the shop where you plan to have the bearings removed and pressed wants more than about $65, you are better off buying a Harbor Freight arbor press for the same amount and doing it yourself. Then you can always do it again in the future, or sell the press on Craigslist for $45.
The price you saw for the spindle bearings is way too high. You can buy a 4-pack of 6003-2RS bearings (good idea if you are doing it yourself especially) on Amazon for $7.99. Walmart is usually even better but takes more browsing to find what you want. The other bearings you need will be similarly priced:
Good luck.
Brian
|
|
