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Post by karlt on Jun 4, 2020 3:28:52 GMT
Hi all, I received some great help on this forum when trying to identify my frame which turned out to be a Viscount Victor. I bought it on ebay a few years ago as an unidentified vintage frame and I have to say they I'm really happy it turned out to be a Viscount, they are a very interesting make. I'm in the process of ordering parts and I'm unsure about some elements such as BB and headset. I bought a vintage 1" headset but the bottom cup doesn't seem to fit. I've seen a Viscount set on ebay (not cheap) and I'm wondering if the headset is specific for the Victor or Viscount in general. The bottom bracket shell is threaded and according to what I've read on the net should be British thread as the shell is 68mm but I've seen some of the posts on this site mention Italian threaded or sealed bearings and square tapered axle. I'm also looking at installing a chrome fork, any particular make suggestions? I'd like to finish the bike with some original Viscount/Lambert parts but they're not easily available or cheap. Any advice on the above would be most appreciated.
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Post by franco on Jun 4, 2020 19:43:33 GMT
Not sure if this model came with Lambert stamped brake levers but if you need some I have a spare pair. They are standard without the suicide levers.
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Post by karlt on Jun 4, 2020 22:00:34 GMT
Thanks for the offer, I just bought a handlebar, stem and brake lever set on ebay. They actually have the suicide levers, death forks and suicide levers sounds like a nice day out on a bike... 😃
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Post by karlt on Jun 4, 2020 22:06:57 GMT
I've bid on a Campag chainset, it's a triple veloce, bought some dura ace 7400 hubs and have a bid on some Mavic Ma2 rims. Suntour shifters arrived today, so it's really the BB I need to sort out, there's some Campag ISO 68mm with a 115 spindle on ebay at the moment. Am I looking for British thread?
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Post by franco on Jun 5, 2020 10:03:12 GMT
Thanks for the offer, I just bought a handlebar, stem and brake lever set on ebay. They actually have the suicide levers, death forks and suicide levers sounds like a nice day out on a bike... 😃 Haha, nothing like spicing up your ride!
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 5, 2020 12:45:58 GMT
Karlt, I have a first generation Lambert Aerospace Pro with full lugged frame and threaded bottom bracket. The bottom bracket specs may be the same as what you have but from what I can tell Lambert/Viscount made bikes out of whatever frames and parts they could cobble together. It is part of the charm. Anyway, according to the micrometer and thread gauge, the BB cups are 1-3/8", 24tpi. The fixed cup (right side) is left threaded and the adjustable cup (left side) is right threaded. The BB shell is 68mm
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Post by karlt on Jun 5, 2020 15:04:56 GMT
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 559
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Post by robt on Jun 5, 2020 15:15:14 GMT
karlt, I attach some snaps of my red Victor (23½" frame) in its current guise. It rides nicely, and is comfortable over middling distances. P1000481 by RMT@261, on Flickr P1000482 by RMT@261, on Flickr P1000483 by RMT@261, on Flickr P1000484 by RMT@261, on Flickr P1000485 by RMT@261, on Flickr You'll see the head tube is lugged, but the bottom bracket & seat cluster are brazed. As you've spotted, I think that all Victor frames were built this way. So far as I'm aware, the flat/upright handlebars & grips are original, as are the seat post, wheels and chainset. Both the seatpost and wheels are marked as Birmalux items. The original white pleather, horsehair & springs saddle is in a box in the shed. I haven't removed the forks, so can't help with headset dimensions, but Sheldon Brown provides a useful table detailing the critical dimensions of the various threaded headset styles. ISO and JIS are, I believe, the most common. The bottom bracket is the typical Lambert/Viscount arrangement, with press-fit sealed bearings (ref.6003DU) and circlips. I finally got round to replacing these recently, hence the chips in the b/b paint. From other posts here, I believe that there isn't enough material left in the press-fit b/b shell to have it tapped for a British/ISO b/b thread (c.34.8mm x 24tpi), but someone here (Rhona?) had their A/S Sport b/b shell tapped out to take an Italian threaded cartridge b/b (36.0mm x 24tpi). Again, Sheldon Brown provides a useful table. The crankset is retained in the original b/b axle (spindle?) using bolts with a 17/32" head. This is, apparently, a size favoured by the aeronautics industry in the 60's and 70's, but not normally included in general spanner or socket sets. If you're able to open the Flickr album that these pictures are in, there are photos of how it was when I bought it (for £43 on eBay) in 2015, as a 'single speed', with downtube shift lever, cable and rear derailleur missing. I added the Viscount downtube decal and clear lacquered it for protection, and am hoping to find the missing 'Aerospace Victor' decals from VeloCals in a draw or toolbox one day, then I can fit them too. I also have a 22" blue Victor, stored at my brother’s house, which still has its original Shimano 'Positron' 5-speed gear system (an early indexing system that used 2 cables). It has the same flat handlebar arrangement as my red one. Good luck building up your frame - it looks like a good one. I particularly like the colour!
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Post by karlt on Jun 5, 2020 15:37:02 GMT
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Post by karlt on Jun 5, 2020 15:40:10 GMT
Just noticed I don't have the cable guides that are on your bb shell.
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 559
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Post by robt on Jun 5, 2020 16:10:30 GMT
Just noticed I don't have the cable guides that are on your bb shell. You might fit a band-on cable guide instead. I have one on an old Viscount Gran Sport frame, but it would take some polishing to match your frame. The b/b shell on my Sebring only has a cable guide on the shell for the rear mech, so its front gear cable is guided by a band-on clamp.
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 559
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Post by robt on Jun 5, 2020 16:47:35 GMT
Many/most of the Viscount 'Aerospace' frames were fitted with plain (unthreaded) bottom bracket shells, so use press-fit bearings and circlips to hold the spindle in place, as on my red Victor. I can't recall what my blue Victor has and, sadly, I can't visit my brother at the moment. The 6003DU press-fit bearing has an external diameter of 35mm. This must match the internal diameter of the plain b/b shell, so there wouldn't be enough material to tap a 34.8mm diameter ('English') thread, but the shell might take a 36.0mm 'Italian' thread. The internal diameter of the 6003 bearing is 17mm, which matches the OD of the Viscount axle/spindle. An axle designed to work with screwed bearing cups will normally have 'shoulders' inboard of the square-tapered ends, which form the inner bearing race for the ball bearings, with the screwed-in cup acting as the outer race. Having said all that, as Brian commented, Viscount do have a bit of a reputation for using whatever came to hand in the construction of their frames, and I have a (non-Aerospace tubed) Viscount Sebring that has a threaded b/b shell with screw-in cups and a shouldered axle. I haven't measured or tested it, but I think that it is English threaded. I also have an Aerospace 400 frame with a threaded b/b, but I can't measure it as it is well and truly stuck (NB: Please don't use Loctite thread lock on your b/b threads!). If your frame has a threaded b/b shell, I think that its most likely to be an English threaded one, so the b/b unit you've seen should fit, but I wouldn't spend a lot of money without checking. You'll also need to check that the axle length (115.5mm?) is suitable for the chainset you've bought, assuming also that your parts use the standard JIS square taper axle (on the b/b) and socket (on the cranks). My go-to suppliers of new square-taper cartridge b/bs are Spa Cycles and SJS cycles, who stock sealed units from under a fiver. P.S. Don't forget (and I apologise if this is obvious) that the non-drive (left, facing forward) threads are conventionally threaded, and the drive-side (right, facing forward) threads are reverse ('left hand') threaded, so you need to insert a threaded b/b cartridge the correct way round. This is to stop the cups unscrewing themselves as you pedal. No problem with the number of questions - it's what this forum is best at! If you're anywhere near Solihull, you're welcome to try any of the (too) many spare parts I have lying around.
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Post by wheelson on Jun 5, 2020 17:27:03 GMT
Rob,
Absolutely beautiful Victor. I'm partial to red bikes and lugged frames. There's a mostly original fully lugged Lambert on US eBay that's begging to be added to my collection, but I just can't justify it.
As far as the axles are concerned, my pseudo-Supa brushed chrome frame has the original Lambert style square un-tapered axle, so I assume it never had the 1st generation Dura Ace crankset and therefore is not a true Supabike. I'm building it as one, though, so I have to install an axle that will fit the D-A, probably resort to my bb hack that I used and documented earlier. I do want to keep the unthreaded bb shell.
Best, John "wheelson" Wilson Western Pennsylvania USA
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 5, 2020 20:19:55 GMT
My bottom bracket shell is threaded as I described. You would use a threaded BB, not the press-fit bearings, which is a good thing IMHO. My spindle is 119.5mm and sqarue tapered. It has crank bolt holes threaded in. My crankset is a Lambert triple with the steam-punk screws but not the portholes. The frame has brazed on cable guides left and right. Here is a picture of the BB shell: photos.app.goo.gl/fNCnJ9y2NPkA454y5
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Post by karlt on Jun 6, 2020 1:30:56 GMT
That looks similar to mine, apparently the Campag veloce triple takes a 111mm spindle, I have a couple of bb's on the watch list. Have you ever taken the headset apart. Bottom cup on mine needs to be tapered. It's a strange bike frame, but there's something very likeable about it.
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Post by karlt on Jun 6, 2020 1:37:04 GMT
Many/most of the Viscount 'Aerospace' frames were fitted with plain (unthreaded) bottom bracket shells, so use press-fit bearings and circlips to hold the spindle in place, as on my red Victor. I can't recall what my blue Victor has and, sadly, I can't visit my brother at the moment. The 6003DU press-fit bearing has an external diameter of 35mm. This must match the internal diameter of the plain b/b shell, so there wouldn't be enough material to tap a 34.8mm diameter ('English') thread, but the shell might take a 36.0mm 'Italian' thread. The internal diameter of the 6003 bearing is 17mm, which matches the OD of the Viscount axle/spindle. An axle designed to work with screwed bearing cups will normally have 'shoulders' inboard of the square-tapered ends, which form the inner bearing race for the ball bearings, with the screwed-in cup acting as the outer race. Having said all that, as Brian commented, Viscount do have a bit of a reputation for using whatever came to hand in the construction of their frames, and I have a (non-Aerospace tubed) Viscount Sebring that has a threaded b/b shell with screw-in cups and a shouldered axle. I haven't measured or tested it, but I think that it is English threaded. I also have an Aerospace 400 frame with a threaded b/b, but I can't measure it as it is well and truly stuck (NB: Please don't use Loctite thread lock on your b/b threads!). If your frame has a threaded b/b shell, I think that its most likely to be an English threaded one, so the b/b unit you've seen should fit, but I wouldn't spend a lot of money without checking. You'll also need to check that the axle length (115.5mm?) is suitable for the chainset you've bought, assuming also that your parts use the standard JIS square taper axle (on the b/b) and socket (on the cranks). My go-to suppliers of new square-taper cartridge b/bs are Spa Cycles and SJS cycles, who stock sealed units from under a fiver. P.S. Don't forget (and I apologise if this is obvious) that the non-drive (left, facing forward) threads are conventionally threaded, and the drive-side (right, facing forward) threads are reverse ('left hand') threaded, so you need to insert a threaded b/b cartridge the correct way round. This is to stop the cups unscrewing themselves as you pedal. No problem with the number of questions - it's what this forum is best at! If you're anywhere near Solihull, you're welcome to try any of the (too) many spare parts I have lying around. Thanks again Rob, it's great to get some info on the Victor, doesn't seem to be many of them around even on this site. I should be good now as far as the BB is concerned. The one other thing I need is a bottom cup for the headset, it appears the head is tapered on the downtube end of the head. Tried a standard one but it doesn't go near it. Are there any spares sales on the site?
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 559
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Post by robt on Jun 6, 2020 11:46:34 GMT
“The one other thing I need is a bottom cup for the headset, it appears the head is tapered on the downtube end of the head. Tried a standard one but it doesn't go near it. Are there any spares sales on the site?”
Is the headset cup too big or too small for the bottom of the head tube? Are you able to measure the ID of the bottom of your head tube and the OD of the headset cup with a vernier caliper to estimate how far out the fit is?
I’ve only used ISO & JIS headsets. Their dimensions only differ by tenths of mm, so are difficult to measure, but attempts to mix & match have caused me difficulties. I don’t know what was ‘standard’ from Viscount, but it sounds to me that you need to start with the dimension of the bottom of your frame’s head tube and work from there. This would also affect your choice of fork, as the fork crown race IDs differ.
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Post by franco on Jun 6, 2020 13:16:22 GMT
I’ve got some headset cups from an International series Viscount that they were producing last off. They look the same size to me but I could try to measure them.
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Post by karlt on Jun 6, 2020 21:55:20 GMT
I’ve got some headset cups from an International series Viscount that they were producing last off. They look the same size to me but I could try to measure them. That would be great, the Victor frame seems to narrow a bit on the inner underside of the head tube, it would be good to know if there's a difference in diameter between the two cups. Thanks Franco.
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Post by karlt on Jun 6, 2020 21:58:26 GMT
“The one other thing I need is a bottom cup for the headset, it appears the head is tapered on the downtube end of the head. Tried a standard one but it doesn't go near it. Are there any spares sales on the site?” Is the headset cup too big or too small for the bottom of the head tube? Are you able to measure the ID of the bottom of your head tube and the OD of the headset cup with a vernier caliper to estimate how far out the fit is? I’ve only used ISO & JIS headsets. Their dimensions only differ by tenths of mm, so are difficult to measure, but attempts to mix & match have caused me difficulties. I don’t know what was ‘standard’ from Viscount, but it sounds to me that you need to start with the dimension of the bottom of your frame’s head tube and work from there. This would also affect your choice of fork, as the fork crown race IDs differ. Thanks Rob, I'll try that, the bottom of the head tube is the same diameter as the top, but a little further up the headtube it appears to taper. I'll try get the calipers in see if I can reach the taper.
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Post by karlt on Jun 7, 2020 22:13:46 GMT
“The one other thing I need is a bottom cup for the headset, it appears the head is tapered on the downtube end of the head. Tried a standard one but it doesn't go near it. Are there any spares sales on the site?” Is the headset cup too big or too small for the bottom of the head tube? Are you able to measure the ID of the bottom of your head tube and the OD of the headset cup with a vernier caliper to estimate how far out the fit is? I’ve only used ISO & JIS headsets. Their dimensions only differ by tenths of mm, so are difficult to measure, but attempts to mix & match have caused me difficulties. I don’t know what was ‘standard’ from Viscount, but it sounds to me that you need to start with the dimension of the bottom of your frame’s head tube and work from there. This would also affect your choice of fork, as the fork crown race IDs differ. Sorted the headset, I realised that the bottom cup was actually in the head. It had been painted over with the purple paint and I only realised that it was the bottom cup when I knocked it out, (I thought it was some sort of spacer at first). I'll never forget what a head looks like without cups again though.... 😬
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 559
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Post by robt on Jun 8, 2020 6:12:23 GMT
Sorted the headset, I realised that the bottom cup was actually in the head. It had been painted over with the purple paint and I only realised that it was the bottom cup when I knocked it out, (I thought it was some sort of spacer at first). I'll never forget what a head looks like without cups again though.... 😬 Glad to hear you’ve solved the mystery. Doesn’t it feel good when a problem disappears?
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Post by karlt on Jun 8, 2020 22:41:13 GMT
Particularly with this bike, I now have found that the threads on the steerer have no groove for a locking washer. So I'll have to look at a way around that. The Lambert/Viscount really are different and almost stand alone, it's easy to see why they have a following. I was going to change the fork to a chrome one but it's a type 3 which apparently are not as "dangerous" as type 1 or 2.
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 10, 2020 1:15:52 GMT
File the tab off the washer.
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Post by cusqueno on Jun 10, 2020 9:09:28 GMT
File the tab off the washer. Some steerers have a flat section rather than a groove. Unless you have a matching washer, the solution is the same as Brian said.
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Post by seanick on Jun 11, 2020 18:36:51 GMT
My Aerospace has an small ball bearings at the top, and next size up on the bottom!
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Post by karlt on Jun 15, 2020 2:12:04 GMT
File the tab off the washer. That's exactly what I ended up doing, seems to be fine. I picked up a very badly rusted bike on a local buy and sell website. It turns out to be a Viking. No serial numbers (looks like they may possibly have been filed off at some point in time), scraped off some of the badly painted top coat and found a sky blue colour and underneath that a silver colour. Not sure if the silver colour is some sort of primer. I read that Viscount took over Viking a some point I'm wondering now is this bike from that era. Strange mix of components, Japanese hubs with Taiwanese lock rings, French derailleurs, Italian handlebars with Japanese stem. Most of the components are in working order, wheel rims are badly damaged though. There was enough grease left on the bike to make the dismantling job handy enough. But the BB was fairly dry. I'd imagine it must be a 70's model. Any suggestions on Viking identification sites would be most welcome. I'll throw up some pics.
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Post by cusqueno on Jun 15, 2020 10:43:50 GMT
For the Lambert/Viking see the Classic Rendezvous page. There was also a Reg Harris Lambert! Neither that nor the Viking one were produced for very long (a year or less??) and so these bikes are quite rare. Incidentally, the blurb on the CR page about Lambert isn't 100% accurate - for instance, Clive Marriot, who was involved in setting-up Lambert, was unrelated to the hotel family. Also, the frames never 'became Japanese and Taiwanese'. The frames of some low-end Viscount bikes (like the Tulsa GL) were made in Taiwan (and are actually quite good, although heavy), but the top and mid range models always had English frames.
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