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Post by stoatie on Apr 23, 2014 20:40:22 GMT
The amount of times that I've stripped and rebuilt my sport has taken it's toll on the BB spindle, the crank arms just don't want to stay attached any more. Being made from the finest cheese grade steel the square taper isn't really square and the threads are more swarf than thread. Option 1 Putting a threadless BB a la Velo Orange Grand Cru or YST, but I feel these take away one of the quintessential parts of an Aerospace frame. Option 2 Is a spindle from Phil Wood (mega bucks) or endlessly scouring the Bay of E in hope that one of the ultra rare Klein spindles comes up. Option 3 Speak to an engineering firm and see if they can make one, which is what I started out doing today although I've not actually had a price yet, they were suggesting that it would be the wrong side of £50. And now the possible 4th option which may or may not work, I had and old Shimano UN55 laying around and I wandered what the spindle inside looked like. So I set about trying to get it out. I removed the seals and tried to hammer it out, it didn't want to budge. Time for some serious action and out with the grinder. 
I worked out why it wouldn't come out the bearings run around a groove on the spindle itself, I seem to have misplaced my vernier gauge so haven't been able to check the exact size but checked it against the original with a 17mm spanner and they seem to be the same. I'm going to try and find a local bearing supplier tomorrow and see whether I can get it to work. If it does then the next step will be too get a BB with the right axle length and start again. I'll report back once I know more. |
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Post by velocipete on Apr 23, 2014 20:54:53 GMT
Promising! Best of luck.
Cheers,
Pete.
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Post by Stella on Apr 23, 2014 21:31:12 GMT
Interesting spindle there in the picture. Having the bearings run around groves is clever, but I'd worry about the pressure the spindle has to take as the much smaller groves for the circlip were blamed for Viscount spindles breaking.
I'd like to know why that spindle in the picture has three groves ... could it be to determine the drive side? Viscount has one with three groves and the side with two is the drive side. Anyhow, you may be lucky and can use that spindle with the 6003 2RS bearing on either side, depending on where they'd sit. If they're just 'close' to the old groves where the bearings ran ... if that makes sense. In the picture, though, it looks as if the distance to the end is the same, which would be bad for your plan, unless you don't mind the chain line being off.
Anyhow, good luck with all that and sorry for your loss (the holy spindle RIP).
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Post by triitout on Apr 24, 2014 0:20:10 GMT
If all else fails, I can tell you after about 250 miles on my single speed conversion, the Velo Orange Grand Cru thread less BB is working fine and is very smooth. It all depends on how far you take the spindle experiment
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Post by cusqueno on Apr 24, 2014 8:55:23 GMT
Stoatie, thanks for looking into this. Very useful as I haven't seen a real Viscount spindle on eBay for a long time. One thing about fitting a thread less BB is that, on a fillet brazed frame, you will probably have to grind off the bits of the tube inside the BB shell. This was done on the yellow Viscount I recently bought. There are cheaper threadless BBs that work ok. I've used a Prestine and YST have also made them. Busaste reported problems with using spindles from disassembled sealed units, but I don't see why it shouldn't work if the spindle is the right diameter. Also, Busaste said he had found a machine shop that would make repro Viscount axles for £10. Spindles are obviously more complicated, but perhaps a large enough order would get the price below £50. After all, every pre-1980 Aerospace owner needs a spare ....
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Post by Stella on Apr 24, 2014 9:30:37 GMT
Couldn't agree more on the 'everyone needs a spare', both spindles for hubs and BBs. I certainly need one for putting Shawn back together at some point. For the time being I'm going to nick his new BB for the rally bike.
I think Bustaste is talking to an engineering shop re spindles in general. I'm sure he'll report at the rally.
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Post by velocipete on Apr 25, 2014 8:34:41 GMT
Had the bottom bracket spindle out of my sport yesterday.Looking at it,I thought the circlip grooves were different distances from the
ends of the spindle.Out with the "trusty" verneer caliper,and indeed,there's 1.6mm in it.
As I've had trouble with chain rub,I reassembled with the short side on the drive side.Chain rub gone,and front changing improved!
I measured my spare axle,it's the same.
So Stella,before you swap spindles,it would be worth measuring yours.
Cheers,
Pete.
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Post by Stella on Apr 25, 2014 13:34:12 GMT
Had the bottom bracket spindle out of my sport yesterday.Looking at it,I thought the circlip grooves were different distances from the ends of the spindle.Out with the "trusty" verneer caliper,and indeed,there's 1.6mm in it. As I've had trouble with chain rub,I reassembled with the short side on the drive side.Chain rub gone,and front changing improved! I measured my spare axle,it's the same. So Stella,before you swap spindles,it would be worth measuring yours. Cheers, Pete. Cheers, Pete, what's very useful information. Just to clarify: do you have a spindle with three or two circlip groves? |
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Post by velocipete on Apr 25, 2014 15:09:29 GMT
I've 2 spindles with 2 grooves.The one on the sport was fitted with the large gap to the drive side.After reversing, chain line is improved.
It still leaves a bit to be desired though.Always thought that 122mm seemed a bit wide.
Cheers,
Pete.
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Post by stoatie on Apr 25, 2014 17:02:52 GMT
Right, well I've heard back from the engineers and it'll be about £80 to get a spindle made up. Much to far the wrong side of £50.
I also tried the shimano spindle in a 6003-2rs bearing and it just slid right through, eventually found the vernier calliper and it's 16.8mm diameter. The next size bearing down is a 6202-2rs which is a 16mm internal 35mm external. I've currently got the spindle in the freezer, going to leave it there over the weekend to see how much it'll shrink although I don't think it'll shrink enough.
There is always the option of using a shimano spindle and getting that machined down to the 16mm.
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Post by stoatie on Apr 25, 2014 17:08:03 GMT
Oh and Stella the grooves on the shimano spindle I think are to give the rubber seals something to seat into. Seeing as shimano have probably sold millions of these I don't think having grooves is necessarily the problem. More to do with the fact that Lambert/Viscount used the worst steel they could find.
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Post by triitout on Apr 25, 2014 23:09:35 GMT
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Post by stoatie on May 2, 2014 15:55:56 GMT
Not a bad option that viscount crankset but I'm already struggling with a 38 tooth inner I don't think going up to a 42 is a great idea. Even if it has come down to $50 now.
I took the shimano spindle out of the freezer and there was no discernible shrinkage in it.
I'm thinking about changing the cranks to a triple set up, which has presented me with even more problems with regards about what to do spindle wise. Going back over the ctc post Busaste mentions that the viscount one is ISO taper, I've found a stronglight crankset on Hilary Stone which after double checking on velobase would also be ISO taper but all modern bottom brackets such as the VO tend to be JIS.
I'm going to have to hold of until I know which crankset I'll be getting and than make a decision from there. If I do get the stronglight I can check it on the two different spindles to see how well it fits. An ISO tapered spindle from Phil Wood would bump up the price to nearly the same as the one from the engineers.
The other thing that I need to work out is getting the right length I know the standard one is 123mm long but if I'm swapping to a triple am I going to need a different length to get the chainline right.
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Post by velocipete on May 2, 2014 17:52:09 GMT
Stoatie,just gone through all this trauma myself. In the end,as I was fitting a Stonglight 90(ish)double,
I decided to go the tritout route.Can't afford Velo orange on my pension,so i bought a Pristine threadless
bottom bracket from ebay. It arrived today,out with the Dremell and got rid of the tubes protruding into
the bottom bracket shell.Fitted it,chainset on,quick test around the block.Great. Cost just over £10 +postage.
I'll keep you all informed how it goes.
I know it's not original,but,it keeps the bike on the road where it should be!
Cheers,
Pete.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,418 
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Post by Jem on May 2, 2014 17:53:47 GMT
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Post by stoatie on May 2, 2014 18:20:00 GMT
Think I might do the same to be honest for the mo at least, have you got a link to the BB you got Pete, I did a search for pristine threadless but came up blank.
Unfortunately being stuck down in the far reaches of Cornwall limits my choices for cycle jumbles. But that tourney crankset would be perfect. How did you manage to find that, I've been searching for triples for a while and that one has never come up.
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Post by velocipete on May 2, 2014 18:57:24 GMT
Stoatie,I got mine from Y frame Discounts.They have loads of stuff on ebay,as long as you know the axle
length for your chainset (google is your friend),should be no problem.
Best of luck.
Cheers,
Pete.
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Jem
Viscount
?
Posts: 3,418
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Post by Jem on May 2, 2014 19:13:02 GMT
But that tourney crankset would be perfect. How did you manage to find that, I've been searching for triples for a while and that one has never come up. I literally just entered '32/42/52' , which is what I have on my Viscount Deore 18. I found that out that when I searched for one like that a while back, it threw up things that didn't come up during other more straightforward searches. The spindle and bearings were a bonus! Open to offers too! |
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Post by velocipete on May 2, 2014 20:21:44 GMT
Jem, that sounds a bit like the old Shadows track,36,22,36. There's a potential mine field
with just banging numbers into the search engine!
Anyway,the Shad's track reminds me of my youth.
Nice chainset,but,52 no longer required,32,anything smaller would be nice.
Cheers,
Pete.
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Post by triitout on May 16, 2014 2:38:56 GMT
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Post by stoatie on May 17, 2014 1:32:50 GMT
Interesting find, I wander what he's had those machined to replace.
I've not given up on this project yet, I've been waiting for my new cranks to arrive so that I knew what taper I would need . They're Stonglight 99bis triple so it'll be an ISO taper and 123mm length.
I've got one of the prestine threadless ones on the way just to get me back on the road.
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Post by triitout on May 17, 2014 13:32:39 GMT
Got a message back that the id of his bearings are 17mm like the 6003 2RS but only 119 or 130mm length is available.  |
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Post by cusqueno on May 17, 2014 15:14:26 GMT
I think 119mm would be close enough for most Viscounts. There would be a certain amount of side to side adjustment possible because of the lack of circlips. Busaste had a chain line check tool at DFR1. He reckoned that Viscount thought it was ok if within 5mm of the designed line.
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Post by Stella on May 19, 2014 22:21:21 GMT
118 ain't a great fit when it comes to threadless or screw-in units. At least not with the SR Apex chain ring. Had to go back to 122. Triitout: I love this link. Need to look closer as I'm helping someone with his Viscount frame. We need a spindle for a SS. Oh, and before I forget, Busaste had posted some links on the CTC back then. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay back then: Possible bottom bracket solutions |
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Post by Stella on May 19, 2014 22:29:28 GMT
Got a message back that the id of his bearings are 17mm like the 6003 2RS but only 119 or 130mm length is available. Is that where the little step is on the spindle? It almost looks like the perfect spindle, without circlips, but having a step instead to prevent the bearings to slide inside. Although a bit tricky as there could be a danger of misaligning them. I like the look of this a lot. And the price is rather reasonable. |
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Post by stoatie on May 22, 2014 12:25:45 GMT
Well the prestine threadless BB arrived this morning and on hastily removing it from the packaging I noticed that at either end of the unit are roller bearings 6002rs to be precise. which is good because it means that the spindle is a nominal size. Upon checking a 6002 it is a 15mm internal and 32mm external. There is an equivalent bearing in the 6202 with a 35mm external. Which theoretically means that you could press this spindle out and use these bearings.
I'm just going to fit as is for now just so I can get back on the road, seeing as it's not quite the right taper for the new cranks anyway. But will look at sorting a proper press and and trying to find other bottom brackets that use a roller bearing system.
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Post by cusqueno on May 22, 2014 12:58:38 GMT
My gold Lambert has a Prestine BB at the moment. It was fitted last year in a hurry to get the bike ready for DFR1 and has just stayed. The right BB spindle for the bike should presumably be the taper-less early one. I have the cranks to fit but haven't yet found the right spindle. Meanwhile, the Prestine BB and later cranks are doing a good job. I think it's very good for the price (the Prestine BB I mean).
Well done for getting the measurements. There was a Mavic spindle from one of their threadless BBs on eBay a few weeks ago and that was apparently 15mm diameter. I was interested but it was too pricey for me to buy as a 'might work'. I found sources of the 6202 bearing on eBay, not too expensive.
Klein is the best known other user of press fit bearings (Busaste thinks they copied Viscount), but there are others. And Phil Wood has produced spindles that fit (although often very expensive).
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Post by Stella on May 22, 2014 14:06:08 GMT
So the Klein would fit the port hole chain ring, right?
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Post by cusqueno on May 22, 2014 14:27:47 GMT
So the Klein would fit the port hole chain ring, right? I think so, although I have never had a Klein spindle to try. You should ask Steve. He has used one, but I think not on a Viscount crank. |
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Post by Stella on May 22, 2014 14:40:28 GMT
I've just looked up the thread and according to that the original Lambert crank needs an ISO taper, not JIS. Klein spindles are JIS. It can be fitted, but with lots of hammering and I'd like to avoid that. Asked Steve and am waiting for a reply. Seems Phil Wood it has to be.
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