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Post by wheelson on Oct 7, 2017 22:27:56 GMT
I'm trying to maintain the signature sealed bottom bracket in my as of yet fully identified Viscount (se e the wheelson posts under the photo heading). Not that I have anything against Italian threading or threadless units as a fix, but in addition to years of bike shop wrenching, half my engineering career in a mechanical test lab, and being a direct descendant of "Blacksmith" Jimmy Morrison, I just like a good old fashioned challenge.
Leaning on the experience of others on the list, I decided to crack open a modern sealed bb unit in hopes of a usable axle to go with readily available sealed bearing replacements. Thanks to my post-retirement gig in a local bike shop, trashed "victims" are readily available for dissection. To my surprise, a Sunlite unit easily punched apart and yielded a 17mm machined bearing journal! So my next step was to select a new unit in the desired spacing (68mm x 122mm) for dismemberment. The attached photos show the successful transplant.
Two points: the new axle has flanges to keep the bearings from moving too far inboard. As to the lack of a snap ring groove, notice the small bushing that was part of the Sunlite unit. It also has an ID of 17mm, and I plan to fit one on each side ground if necessary to the width that the crank arms will draw them up. Thoughts?
Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
www.flickr.com/photos/wheelson2011/albums/72157686793837471
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Post by cusqueno on Oct 9, 2017 10:36:57 GMT
This is very helpful information. In the past, a couple of us have looked for modern sealed units that could be taken apart as you've done to reveal 17mm machined areas for 6003 bearings, but I've never found one - they usually have much smaller bearings inside. So perhaps SunLite bearings will be a good (cheap?) source of replacement Viscount bb spindles.
Various bike brands have used 6003 cartridge bearings in their bbs and, if the right length (ideally 121mm), the spindles can be used in Viscounts. Klein for example used to make them, including a titanium version.
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Post by wheelson on Oct 9, 2017 11:57:49 GMT
Yes, the bearing in the sacrificial bb was 173110-2RS with spec's of 17mm ID and 31mm OD. Obviously the bearing OD is too small, but I fortunately had some new 6003's on hand and everything went together nicely. I haven't installed the outer press fit bushings as described in place of the snap ring yet, probably not necessary, although the non-drive side 6003 went in a bit easier than the drive side. I didn't use any Loctite on the bearings on installation as this was very much experimental. I like the fact that the new axle has the inner flange to limit movement of the bearing inboard. Also nice that the retail for the Sunlite bb unit is US$18 and should be available anywhere in various lengths up to 127.5mm - I used 122. I found a titanium axle on eBay for US$55. Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
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Post by busaste on Oct 25, 2017 20:27:35 GMT
Very useful post thanks. It is something I have had on my to do list for ages but you have saved me a job!
When I checked the chain lines on my various Aerospace frames, I found the best one was obtained with a BB spindle of 125mm length.
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Post by proaktive52 on Mar 9, 2018 17:56:16 GMT
Gents
I have my frame repainted and new 6003 bottom bracket bearings and spindle but my bike shop man can't get the new ones back into the bracket Can you give me a blow by blow way of doing this as I am getting desperate to put the bike back together Thank you Richard
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Post by 54roadie on Mar 10, 2018 7:33:58 GMT
Richard,
The inside of the BB shell wasn't painted, was it? If so start by getting back to bare metal there. My local bike shop let's me borrow a large vise and a variety of BB and headset installation cups to get the job done right. It frequently helps to have a large, heavy gauge washer that will press on both inner and outer races. I put that against the bearing to distribute loads evenly, then the appropriate cup, and slow, firm, steady squeezing does the trick.
You might want to contact Stella, on this forum or Facebook, as she has a tool that she and (I think) Steve Busaste designed and had made.
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Post by blackwizard on Mar 11, 2018 5:20:28 GMT
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Post by proaktive52 on Mar 11, 2018 17:16:22 GMT
Thanks for the initial bit of information Black Wizard; I have bought one of the presses you mentioned
So when the bearings are in!!!!
Whats the method to tap in so I don't distort the spindle ends?
Timber block, frame against something; and I have just had the frame painted?
The press will come in handy down the line as well, (building a Ribble 653 whilst waiting for the Viscount frame as well)
Richard
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Post by blackwizard on Mar 12, 2018 5:07:29 GMT
I put a crank bolt in the spindle to protect it then hit that. The force required wa far more than I expected but it did go eventually. To projtect the opposite end I made a wooden jig to hold the frame in place, it was basic and crude but ensured I didn’t slip. As I said the force was far more than I expected to have to use but from reading forums this seems the norm.
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Post by blackwizard on Mar 12, 2018 5:07:41 GMT
I put a crank bolt in the spindle to protect it then hit that. The force required wa far more than I expected but it did go eventually. To projtect the opposite end I made a wooden jig to hold the frame in place, it was basic and crude but ensured I didn’t slip. As I said the force was far more than I expected to have to use but from reading forums this seems the norm.
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Post by Stella on Mar 23, 2018 17:15:32 GMT
Thanks, Jem, for pointing to this post.
Very interesting and useful information re the Sunlite BB.
Steve: 125mm, eh? I'll keep that in mind.
My apologies for not being on here much, but I haven't forgotten about you all, and definitely not lost my passion for Viscounts. Looking forward to see you at the DFR!
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Post by proaktive52 on Mar 23, 2018 18:43:36 GMT
First attempt
Spindle back in with 6003RS bearings but really difficult to get spindle in
Also they are really grainy (new bearings) so I think the fit has expanded the inner ring and put pressure on the bearings
Not happy with fit so taken to another bike shop to remove and seen whats going on
I also may need another set of new bearings as these may be toast
No wonder they stoped doing the BB this way
Disappointed not to get on with build Richard
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Post by schrauber on Mar 23, 2018 19:08:07 GMT
Interesting information about the Sunlite although on a quick look it doesn't look available close to me in germany. I have just revamped a Viscount spindle (2 groove type) which had a realy wobbly fit to the TA cranks. I found that the tapper was distorted, probably from hammering out stubborn bearings. I set up a grinding disc to accurately regrind each of the 8 faces which worked out ok. Now the cranks fit well. I did notice the steel to be soft to work, unlike normal shimano shafts with bearing surfaces. Also I noticed that the square tappers didn't line up to each other accurately and were around 1.5° different. I guess this could mean that the pedaling force from the left crank could have twisted the shaft against the resistance through the chainwheel. Or the spindle just wasn't made any better in the first place. Anyway I hope its not a sign of an a pending failure. So yeah, I just got this spindle with frame recently and have no idea of it's history, and would warn any one hammering out the spindles to take good care. Anyone know what the bolt threading is? The heads measure 13.2mm (17/32")and none of my other crank bolts fit in, so I guess its an imperial size.
Steve
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Post by schrauber on Mar 23, 2018 19:14:34 GMT
I am preparing my frame for painting and found that with the powder coating the bearings to be a tight fit, but when striped down to the metal the bearings just fall in/out. Also my spindle has more of a loose fit inside the bearings. Just tried this with the old bearings, haven't got any new ones yet.
Steve
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Post by wheelson on Mar 24, 2018 13:06:49 GMT
[quote author=" schrauber" I am preparing my frame for painting and found that with the powder coating the bearings to be a tight fit, but when striped down to the metal the bearings just fall in/out. Also my spindle has more of a loose fit inside the bearings." My original "hack" by dismembering the Sunlite sealed hub was purely experimental to say the least. To permanently fix the sealed bottom bracket situation I would probably recommend either the threadless sealed unit or re tapping the bb to Italian threading. BOTH solutions will require trimming the protruding tubing ends inside the bb shell, in my case anyhow, as my Italian tap has a long lead that hits the tubes before it can cut threads. So if you have the frame all the way stripped, consider trimming those tubes. Best, John "wheelson"
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Post by blackwizard on Mar 25, 2018 4:16:32 GMT
It certainly is not the best B.B. system in the world and quite a task to replace the bearings but in fairness how often would you need to do this? My Lambert for example would not have required them removing if I didn’t t need to repaint it as the original ones were still good, that’s afterover 40 years..........the bearings had survived whereas much of the rest of the bike hadn’t so maybe they never really intended them to be replaced......! That said i can agree that the spindles were an issue and broke but alas mine hadn’t so again there possibly wasn’t a plan to replace these by he designer.
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Post by wheelson on Mar 26, 2018 2:05:01 GMT
quote blackwizard" It certainly is not the best B.B. system in the world and quite a task to replace the bearings but in fairness how often would you need to do this?" I like the sealed bearing bottom bracket. It's one of the things that drew me to the Lambert's way back when. That's why I stuck with the concept when I started building my mongrel Viscount. I ended up with the "hybrid" setup that I wrote about in the "hack". Close to the original but no snap rings on the bb axle. As tight as everything went back together, I'm not worried. I rebuilt the hubs as well, using the original bearing types. Those bearings definitely weren't going to last forever! I think that was harder than the b.bracket. Lovin' every minute of it! Best, John "Wheelson"
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Post by blackwizard on Mar 26, 2018 3:10:30 GMT
It’s odd isn’t it as my hubs went back together so easily.......it just seems that each set or bike is unique to itself, guess that’s why we love them!
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Post by schrauber on Mar 26, 2018 19:52:21 GMT
Thanks for the tips. I had a VS Sport back in 76, my first bike I ever bought new. Twas a new start after the whole garage burnt down. Anyway, I replaced the BB bearings twice in a fairly short time as they aquired some play. Probably they would have lasted longer, had I been more patient. I didn't have a problem with them back then, rather I was interested in the technology. Once I removed the circlips and tapped the spindle through a little more to run a triple. Worked fine without the clips for the short time I tried it.
As a few others here, I am keen to keep those special Viscount (or rather Lambert) inventions as for me they are what makes these bikes special. Still it's a great backup to know about the italian solution and the Sunlite.
On other cranks I've successfully used loctite to take up space and fix bearings, shafts and worn spines in cranks. Also on my VS hubs the bearings were sometimes looser, and it did the job. So I don't expect this will be much different. Also the new paint should return some of the tight fit.
I do quite enjoy what challenges bikes in general can present to me. For example the other week I turned up my first thread in the lathe to make a 23mm puller for the TA crank. Yep took a while, but it worked out. I don't know if it's one of my more stupid ideas, but I am thinking of making my own spindle either from scratch or converting an worn out regular one by grindling off the shoulders and sleeving it to the bearing size. But hey, I don't need a complete replacement yet.
Steve
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Post by blackwizard on Mar 26, 2018 20:06:32 GMT
I had a similar notion myself about making a spindle, I mean it cannot be beyond the wit of man with a lathe and a modicum of ability to turn one!
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Post by eaglerock on Mar 27, 2018 0:08:40 GMT
It certainly is not the best B.B. system in the world and quite a task to replace the bearings but in fairness how often would you need to do this?..........the bearings had survived whereas much of the rest of the bike hadn’t so maybe they never really intended them to be replaced......! That said i can agree that the spindles were an issue and broke but alas mine hadn’t so again there possibly wasn’t a plan to replace these by he designer. The key issue isn't replacing the bottom bracket; it's replacing the cranks, which have a stronger potential to wear out (assuming, as you say, the spindle doesn't break first). My introduction to Lambert-Viscountland came not through the purchase of a bike/frame, but through the purchase of a Lambert crankset. Almost ten years ago, I bought a 50.4 crankset off a Craigslist listing in San Francisco; the cannabis-saturated hipster who sold them to me falsely described them as a Specialites TA Pro V*. I was starting to amass a collection of 50.4 chainrings, and TA was the natural crankset for TA rings. For over a year, I struggled to keep my crankset snug on a normal-taper Phil Wood bottom bracket. I had to tighten the crankbolts at least twice a week. It was only after the bottom bracket self-destructed that I took the whole thing apart again, and discovered that the BB taper and the crank "taper" didn't match, as the crank had no taper at all. So of course it didn't stay tightened - there was only a thin ridge of contact between the crank and the bottom bracket, at the one point on the spindle taper where the spindle's cross-section and the crank's hole matched. That didn't provide enough friction to keep the cranks in place as pedaling helped push the crankarms outward, so the crankarms kept loosening up. In the event that a Lambert untapered spindle breaks, there are no new replacements; everyone else makes normal 4° tapered spindles. You either get a Lambert spindle that's as old as your broken one and take your chances, or switch to a normal tapered spindle and replace your crankset. At least the spindle's steel; unless there's a traumatic failure like a break at the circlip, it's likely to last quite a while. But what if your crankset goes first? Alloy is a lot softer than steel; there's a reason you hear about cranks breaking/wearing out, but you almost never hear about spindles breaking. If your crank goes, there is literally no new option. If you can't find an old Lambert crank in acceptable condition, then you have to replace both the crank and the bottom bracket, or you get my problem in reverse with a tapered crank on an untapered spindle. * In all honesty, the stinky hipster probably didn't know the difference any better than I did at the time. Hipster fashions have changed from track bikes to touring bikes since then; he may have learned over the years.
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Post by schrauber on Mar 27, 2018 20:24:32 GMT
I had a similar notion myself about making a spindle, I mean it cannot be beyond the wit of man with a lathe and a modicum of ability to turn one! As much as I don't realy need to do it it still plays on me to try it out. Still there is more than enough parts for me to find or fix up on this current project without that one.
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Post by schrauber on Mar 27, 2018 20:34:01 GMT
It certainly is not the best B.B. system in the world and quite a task to replace the bearings but in fairness how often would you need to do this?..........the bearings had survived whereas much of the rest of the bike hadn’t so maybe they never really intended them to be replaced......! That said i can agree that the spindles were an issue and broke but alas mine hadn’t so again there possibly wasn’t a plan to replace these by he designer. The key issue isn't replacing the bottom bracket; it's replacing the cranks, which have a stronger potential to wear out (assuming, as you say, the spindle doesn't break first). My introduction to Lambert-Viscountland came not through the purchase of a bike/frame, but through the purchase of a Lambert crankset. Almost ten years ago, I bought a 50.4 crankset off a Craigslist listing in San Francisco; the cannabis-saturated hipster who sold them to me falsely described them as a Specialites TA Pro V*. I was starting to amass a collection of 50.4 chainrings, and TA was the natural crankset for TA rings. For over a year, I struggled to keep my crankset snug on a normal-taper Phil Wood bottom bracket. I had to tighten the crankbolts at least twice a week. It was only after the bottom bracket self-destructed that I took the whole thing apart again, and discovered that the BB taper and the crank "taper" didn't match, as the crank had no taper at all. So of course it didn't stay tightened - there was only a thin ridge of contact between the crank and the bottom bracket, at the one point on the spindle taper where the spindle's cross-section and the crank's hole matched. That didn't provide enough friction to keep the cranks in place as pedaling helped push the crankarms outward, so the crankarms kept loosening up. In the event that a Lambert untapered spindle breaks, there are no new replacements; everyone else makes normal 4° tapered spindles. You either get a Lambert spindle that's as old as your broken one and take your chances, or switch to a normal tapered spindle and replace your crankset. At least the spindle's steel; unless there's a traumatic failure like a break at the circlip, it's likely to last quite a while. But what if your crankset goes first? Alloy is a lot softer than steel; there's a reason you hear about cranks breaking/wearing out, but you almost never hear about spindles breaking. If your crank goes, there is literally no new option. If you can't find an old Lambert crank in acceptable condition, then you have to replace both the crank and the bottom bracket, or you get my problem in reverse with a tapered crank on an untapered spindle. * In all honesty, the stinky hipster probably didn't know the difference any better than I did at the time. Hipster fashions have changed from track bikes to touring bikes since then; he may have learned over the years. I saw once a photo (on the net) of a Lambert crankset which had 2 large black steel washers with square holes. Apparently these were slid onto the non tappered square, to sit against that small edge. Then the crank (also without tapper) was just clamped between the black washer and the washer under the crank bolt. I bought a Lambert crank which shows signs where this small edge had bit into the crank, so obviously those washers had not been used or understood. Probably didn't work so well either. So I'm glad I'm using a TA with tapper.
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