Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389 
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Post by Jem on Mar 26, 2023 13:25:12 GMT
I was in a local bike shop the other day and surprised myself by liking the look of a modern bike. It was a Cannondale Topstone. They call it a gravel bike, and it looked practical and would handle a few different rides and maybe a camping tour. The really impressive thing was the number of attachment points for racks/panniers and bottle cages, despite the fact it didn't have a traditional rack on the back or front. Anyway, after talking to the owner who rode one , I realised the carbon frame in the shop was just way out of my price range, I went home and researched the prices of the aluminium framed ones. Never having owned/ridden/researched an aluminium bike, I was wondering if aluminium is a strong enough for carrying a load and going off road and up and down a few curbs? If I were to buy one, I would look for second hand, so I wouldn't have the luxury of a warranty. What are the typical characteristics of an aluminium framed bike? EDIT- they also do a version with alu frame and carbon front fork. What would be the pros and cons of that? |
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Post by brianbutler on Mar 26, 2023 16:26:41 GMT
I was in a local bike shop the other day and surprised myself by liking the look of a modern bike. It was a Cannondale Topstone. They call it a gravel bike, and it looked practical and would handle a few different rides and maybe a camping tour. The really impressive thing was the number of attachment points for racks/panniers and bottle cages, despite the fact it didn't have a traditional rack on the back or front. Anyway, after talking to the owner who rode one , I realised the carbon frame in the shop was just way out of my price range, I went home and researched the prices of the aluminium framed ones. Never having owned/ridden/researched an aluminium bike, I was wondering if aluminium is a strong enough for carrying a load and going off road and up and down a few curbs? If I were to buy one, I would look for second hand, so I wouldn't have the luxury of a warranty. What are the typical characteristics of an aluminium framed bike? EDIT- they also do a version with alu frame and carbon front fork. What would be the pros and cons of that? I had two aluminum road bikes that I used as my main rides over a 24 year period - a Schwinn from 1990-2003 and then a Trek from 2003-2014. They were both light but sturdy. The prevailing opinion during that period was that an aluminum frame had a harsh ride. I felt that was accurate, but I'm not sure if it was a function of the bikes or the opinion itself. The first bike met its end when the rear derailleur went into the spokes and bent the frame. Evidently you cannot fix a bent aluminum frame. The second one had worn out components and I opted for a carbon fiber bike, which I rode for a few years and then switched entirely to steel frame vintage bikes.
I did not care for the looks of the TIG welded frame joints on the Trek. Otherwise both bikes looked and performed quite well over tens of thousands of miles.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Mar 27, 2023 0:49:08 GMT
Jem, the Topstone is indeed a nice bike. We’ve sold several at the shop I contract with, and I just did a tuneup on one - ‘way out of my price range.
My aluminum bike is a 1993 Cannondale H600 hybrid, bought online as a frame-only many years ago. I had it and a steel fork powder coated, fitted it with drop bars, mudguards, front and rear racks. I rode this bike fully loaded on a weeklong 300+ mile rail trail and towpath tour back in 2009 with a Boy Scout troop.
This particular frame makes a decent gravel bike in that it has plenty of fittings for fenders, racks, and water bottles. It also has 130mm spacing (I’m currently running it as 8 speed 13-30 and as a triple with brifters). It can also handle 700x40 tires. Downside is aluminum frames of this particular model are a bit heavier and somewhat stiff. The steel fork, fat tires, a Girvim shock stem , and a shock seat post mellow the ride.
If you can find one of these frames, you can build anything you want (no disc brakes, though). I’ll try to get better photos up on my Flickr site soon.
Best,
John “wheelson”
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 27, 2023 5:35:19 GMT
What is most important is that you buy what will most satisfy you. I have had several aluminum bikes and find them slightly more harsh than a steel bike of the same rigidity. I very much liked my Cannondale 3.0 which seemed robust and a little harsh. I have a bonded Trek made with 7000 series aluminum which seems a bit more refined and a tad more comfortable. I also have a Vitus 979 which is a smooth easy ride but not as rigid; everything is a compromise. I think the major downside of aluminum is once bent, always bent. I also am not a lover of carbon forks as they break instead of bending, so certain collisions might be more (shall we say) dramatic. Nevertheless, I think the Cannondale Topstone series to most likely be rather good bikes. In the US, the Cannondale Topstone Alloy bikes range in price from $1080 to $2325. What would I do to have a nice new gravel bike with a similar budget. I think I would build up a nice steel frame, like this beauty sold by Velo Orange. The other option is to buy a good used bike. Of course, what fits my gravely needs is my (budget friendly) old Trek 520 fitted with cyclocross tires. It will be interesting to see what you decide.
All the Best Jim
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Post by wheelson on Mar 27, 2023 13:28:33 GMT
Good advice from Jim, as always. I second the misgivings of carbon forks and I might add handlebars. As Jim said, good steel frames are out there as well, although gravel bikes are “in” and a bit pricey. If you can live without disc brakes, there are some reasonable deals to be had. My Nashbar 6000T from the ‘90’s might be a good example. This was a Taiwanese made frame that very closely resembles a currently made Soma Smoothie. All the dimensions closely match my previously posted Cannondale H600, in fact almost every component including the wheelsets are interchangeable. At this point in my life, I would probably take the Nashbar on that longer gravel tour as the Tange 2 double butted steel is more forgiving than the oversized 6061-T6 aluminum!
Best,
John “wheelson”
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Mar 27, 2023 19:55:04 GMT
Brian/John/Jim - many thanks for that. I value your experience on the matter. I have a lot of time for Velo-Orange, and if it money wasn't a consideration then I'd go for that.
I have been looking on the usual sales sites and I can find an older, used aluminium version of that Cannondale for £500-600, and couple that with a few sales of my own bits, wouldn't be too painful.
Your other recommendations will be on my 'research list' this week. I'll check out the Nashbar, the name rings no bells at all.
I think I can live without disc brakes.
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 27, 2023 23:37:34 GMT
Nashbar or "Bike Nashbar" is an American mail order/online parts supplier. They are now merged with Performance Bicycle. Years ago, I lived in great anticipation of my next (they mailed printed copies back then) Nashbar catalog.
Cheers Jim
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Post by wheelson on Mar 28, 2023 2:38:51 GMT
Nashbar worked very well for me as their warehouse and outlet store was located in Youngstown, Ohio. For many years, I made a monthly trip past that location as I traveled to one of our manufacturing plants. In the outlet store was a huge table of bike components at ridiculous prices - open boxes, returns, scratch and dents. And a wall full of framesets, too. That’s where my 6000T came from, frame only for $65. A few months later, a matching fork appeared for $10. I love a good deal and patience is a virtue.
I’ve considered converting one of my Viscount frames for rail trail use, though they’re a bit limited by tire width. Perhaps converting to 700c or 650b might do the trick.
Best,
John “wheelson”
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Post by brianbutler on Mar 28, 2023 12:05:51 GMT
I find that a regular steel road bike with 1-1/8" (28mm) tires is adequate for any unpaved rail trails and roads I have ridden here in the northeast corner of the US. I'm replacing my Trek 520 with a Viscount Sebring as my camping bike. For my style of "town and country" touring it should be more than adequate, again with 1-1/8" Panaracer Pasela tires. I have whittled my camping/touring kit down to under 9kg (20 lb), which includes two Ortlieb Backroller panniers but not food and water. I only carry food the distance between the last store and the campground.
Massachusetts state campgrounds open in mid-May and I have a couple of overnight and multi-day trips laid out, and I will report on how this rig works out.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Mar 28, 2023 23:44:08 GMT
Brian, that sounds great. I’m currently overstocked on gravel, rail trail, and camping bikes and need to sort out my current needs. I’m really into interchangeable wheelsets to try to cut down on my current fleet. Easier said than done!
Best,
John “wheelson”
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Post by brianbutler on Mar 29, 2023 0:41:27 GMT
Brian, that sounds great. I’m currently overstocked on gravel, rail trail, and camping bikes and need to sort out my current needs. I’m really into interchangeable wheelsets to try to cut down on my current fleet. Easier said than done! Best, John “wheelson” It is tough to get rid of things. I am trying to reduce my fleet by about 4 bikes this spring. The first to go will be the Trek 520. It is a fine bike but overkill for my needs, plus it is too modern (2001). None of the parts interchange with anything else I have. Next will be my 2014 Trek Madone 3.1 carbon bike. Again, a very nice bike but I haven't ridden it for five or 6 years. Then a near-mint 1976 Raleigh Competition. I just don't like its aggressive geometry that makes it a chore to ride. Finally, a 1977 Motobecane Grand Touring along with my collection of French parts. At that point I might use your strategy of interchangeable wheels, etc.
What was your destination traveling from Pittsburgh through Youngstown? I am originally from the Akron-Canton, Ohio area.
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 29, 2023 4:59:40 GMT
Yes, reduce the fleet; so hard to do. I must make room for future projects so I will have to bite the bullet and sell one or more of my babies. I think I will start with the Tommaso; a lovely bike. Must swap some components; guys this is hard! Cheers Jim  Tommaso Side by Jim_Gude, on Flickr |
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
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Post by robt on Mar 29, 2023 14:56:06 GMT
Jem, I was interested to read the specs of the Cannondale Topstone range, particularly the base model Topstone 4, with its aluminium frame, carbon-fibre forks, 1x10 Microsoft drivetrain, cable-operated discs and clearance for at least 37mm tyres. Anne and I have recently completed (most sections of) the Rebellion Way around Norfolk with some friends, who had a variety of bikes. Anne rode the Viscount Aerospace Sport that I have described at length elsewhere here, though I have further 'updated' it to a 1x10-speed with a Shimano Tiagra r/d, 11-34 cassette and flat bar shifter. This gave an additional 2 low gears over the previous 11-28 8-speed cassette & old LX r/d, which helped on the hills (contrary to popular belief, the Norfolk coastline is not flat!). Anne managed the full 200 miles that we rode over 6 days without a single mechanical problem. The A/S Sport was fitted with 700c x 32mm Panaracer Pasela tyres under full-length SKS mudguards. Since our return, I've swapped the 44T Stronglight crankset for a 38T to further lower the gear range.  Viscount A/S Sport by RMT@261, on Flickr I rode my 1999 GT Force road bike, which still has its original 24-speed (3x8) Shimano RSX groupset, shod with 700c x 28mm Paselas under very snug-fitting SKS 'Raceblade' mudguards, which caused me significant problems on the fields and forest tracks due to the accumulation of silt and clay around the front brake calliper. The repeated need to clear this area of debris somehow resulted in the front brake calliper retaining nut working loose, causing the calliper to eject itself from the fork crown when we were, fortunately, only four miles from the end of our ride. No harm resulted, but I was lucky that the calliper didn't fall into my spokes when it came free.  GT Force by RMT@261, on Flickr I had recognised early in the ride that I would have been better bringing my 1995 Raleigh M-Trax 150, with its 45mm tyres, big mudguards and V-brakes (or even my Sebring, with shorty mudguards and centre-pull brakes!).  Rail trail bike trip by RMT@261, on Flickr One of our friends rode his 2-year old Whyte 'gravel' bike, which has a similar spec to the Topstone 4, though it has 22 gears and hydraulic disc brakes. This seems very well-suited to the route we took, and he was very comfortable on it. It was interesting though, that he was the only one of us who suffered punctures, in both front and rear wheels, so he is now swapping his Specialised gravel tyres for something with better puncture protection. In short, I think that the well-designed modern aluminium frames are strong enough to withstand some fairly hefty abuse, though I don't know whether the same can yet be said for carbon-fibre forks. Clearance for, and use of, wider (>32mm) tyres certainly helps with comfort, and disc brakes (and probably V-brakes) can avoid the dirt-gathering problems that I encountered with calliper brakes. For a very comprehensive opinion on what makes a perfect Touring bike, I recommend downloading and reading the St John St Cycles Touring Bike Bible, which is essentially an extremely lengthy brochure for their products. Good hunting on the 2nd hand market! |
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Mar 29, 2023 17:57:55 GMT
Thanks for report and info Rob.
It sounds a bit like you are saying that Viscount actually comes out on top for that mixed surface ride?! (again)
I just had a look at those Whyte bikes, and the only reason I wanted to go to something like that Cannondale is that the only times when I have ridden a mountain bike on roads, I found it to be the most dispiriting ride ever..so heavy and 'draggy' that I felt I might be faster getting off and pushing it.
I have started to see the used Cannondale Topstone in the region of £500 , so within my price range (especially when I sell a couple of the shed full I already have) - I guess that level of bike are the kind of purchase some people make and then don't use much? Maybe these are the same guys who buy expensive golf clubs, and then get rid of them when they don't miraculously improve their score over night.
I am also sold on this tubeless , 'self sealing' puncture tyres. I am not totally sure how they work or their efficacy , but it would make a days 'off road' track riding a bit easier, when the hawthorn bushes have had a trim (they are my biggest puncture nemesis)
Although, with the state of UK roads at the moment, we might all need 'off road' bikes just for a trip to the shops around here. Shocking!
I'll check that link out, thanks
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Post by brianbutler on Mar 29, 2023 19:00:30 GMT
Excellent write-up, Rob. Thank you. The Viscount gets my vote for best looking bike and rider.
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 29, 2023 20:58:52 GMT
In the "Rebellion Way" web page, I was surprised to see horses and bikes sharing a path. In my area, many of the horse people are at war with bicycles. They congregate at public meetings to protect our "equestrian community" from evil cyclists; they oppose any kind of bike path or bike lane. I suppose this attitude was created by banzai mountain bikes screaming down our mountain trails. I have tried to explain that horses and bikes can share space so long as common courtesy (bikes stop and wait for horses) is followed. My comments never became a dialog as my reward was being shouted down by the angry mob; I no longer try. Our civil authority always yields to the large and loud crowd.
All the Best
Jim
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
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Post by robt on Mar 29, 2023 22:59:44 GMT
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 30, 2023 13:51:05 GMT
I only encounter horses of paved surface streets. The horses use the unpaved shoulder. I always call out to horses and maintain as much distance as possible (far side of road) if I cannot keep my distance, I stop. Nevertheless, when dealing with horse people (and to no avail) I brought up sites like that one and offered to use my bike for familiarization training. I also mentioned that when I was a boy we used to ride our bikes along with some kids who rode horses; never a problem as the horses were used to bikes. Generally, I just avoid horses like I do jacked up four wheel drive pickups; we have those motorists that simply dislike (even hate) cyclists. At least the horse people won't squash me.
Cheers Jim
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Mar 30, 2023 15:19:51 GMT
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Mar 30, 2023 15:42:18 GMT
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
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Post by robt on Mar 30, 2023 16:11:56 GMT
Jem,
We’re up in Leeds on Saturday. I can pick it up from Huddersfield and drop it off in Burton on our way home!
(I do like the Genesis Volare that I have.)
Have you included the GT Grade range of gravel bikes in your search criteria? They were one of the early manufacturers to the gravel party, were quite well regarded, and made a wide range of options with aluminium and carbon fibre framed models. There should be a few that were bought on the Cycle to Work scheme whose owners might now be looking to upgrade to the latest model and tech.
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Post by brianbutler on Mar 30, 2023 19:06:22 GMT
I only encounter horses of paved surface streets. The horses use the unpaved shoulder. I always call out to horses and maintain as much distance as possible (far side of road) if I cannot keep my distance, I stop. Nevertheless, when dealing with horse people (and to no avail) I brought up sites like that one and offered to use my bike for familiarization training. I also mentioned that when I was a boy we used to ride our bikes along with some kids who rode horses; never a problem as the horses were used to bikes. Generally, I just avoid horses like I do jacked up four wheel drive pickups; we have those motorists that simply dislike (even hate) cyclists. At least the horse people won't squash me.
Cheers Jim
Yep, horses and horses' asses.
Brian
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Mar 30, 2023 19:16:16 GMT
Jem, We’re up in Leeds on Saturday. I can pick it up from Huddersfield and drop it off in Burton on our way home! (I do like the Genesis Volare that I have.) Have you included the GT Grade range of gravel bikes in your search criteria? They were one of the early manufacturers to the gravel party, were quite well regarded, and made a wide range of options with aluminium and carbon fibre framed models. There should be a few that were bought on the Cycle to Work scheme whose owners might now be looking to upgrade to the latest model and tech. Thanks for offer Rob, very kind of you - I like the look of that one, and the colour scheme is very attractive, but I am finding cheaper used versions that are more within my comfortable price range. If that one were £500-£600, then I think I would grab it and take you up on that offer to collect. I'll check out GT, thanks- and as you say, quite a few folk I know got the cycle to work deal and maybe didnt really get the use from them and might be looking to make space and generate some cash |
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Mar 30, 2023 19:33:20 GMT
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
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Post by robt on Mar 30, 2023 22:03:15 GMT
Jem,
Yes, that’s the kind of thing. My GT Force is from 1999, but is still doing good service today (brake calliper nuts aside!).
Rob.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Mar 31, 2023 15:01:14 GMT
Jem, Yes, that’s the kind of thing. My GT Force is from 1999, but is still doing good service today (brake calliper nuts aside!). Rob. Now I 'have my eye in' looking for this kind of things I'm seeing lots of potentials, there's used Kona Jake and Rove for around £400 which look fine to me. Thanks for helping me cast the net a bit wider. |
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Post by whippet on Apr 5, 2023 7:07:31 GMT
Jem, I bought an Aluminium Topstone 1 in February. 2nd hand but ridden less than 100km for £1,100. It looked new. I absolutely love it, it is everything you say you want. Very comfortable and with an ability for really fat tyres. I bought an extra pair of OE wheels so I have the option of road or off road set ups. Although now, I’m actually upgrading to posher wheels as the OE WTB’s have a poor reputation. I did a 100k audax on it on Saturday and it was perfect. Plenty of room for 32mm Continental Four Season tyres and mudguards.
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Post by whippet on Apr 5, 2023 7:08:54 GMT
Also…. Gravel riding around the New Forest was a revelation, so much fun that I’ve planned a weeks holiday around it in May.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Apr 5, 2023 19:34:42 GMT
Jem, I bought an Aluminium Topstone 1 in February. 2nd hand but ridden less than 100km for £1,100. It looked new. I absolutely love it, it is everything you say you want. Very comfortable and with an ability for really fat tyres. I bought an extra pair of OE wheels so I have the option of road or off road set ups. Although now, I’m actually upgrading to posher wheels as the OE WTB’s have a poor reputation. I did a 100k audax on it on Saturday and it was perfect. Plenty of room for 32mm Continental Four Season tyres and mudguards. Thanks for info Whippet - there's nothing like a recommendation from someone. I am just biding my time for one coming up at the right price second hand, although I also have my other eye on the Genesis Criox de Fer. The steel frame is appealing to me I just need a 'do it all bike' to grab as my 'go to'. I have had a few hairy moments on the canal path on my Viscount and I am really getting the urge for some more off road tracks but not full on mountain biking up and down hills and deep mud - so both the above bikes seem to fit my needs. |
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Post by wheelson on Apr 8, 2023 16:55:02 GMT
This is exactly what I’m trying to do with my “fleet”: have a “go to” bike, at least for each category. But with rail trail/towpath (loaded and unloaded), paved roads, commuting, day trips, and more . . . And then there’s “new” and “old”, the Viscounts, the Schwinn’s, the Austro Daimler, the newer stuff, . . . As you can probably tell, it’s very frustrating when you love ‘em all. I’ve already declared a moratorium on any more bikes. I have a dozen or so rideable bikes and probably twice that many framesets. The paring down begins, wish me luck!
Best,
John “wheelson”
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