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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 7, 2022 17:04:31 GMT
I saw this and it makes me appreciate my old bikes. Old bikes are simple, standardized, functional, and elegant. I have no desire to own one of the new high tech rigs; especially at their price.
Ride Safe Jim
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Post by wheelson on Jan 7, 2022 18:42:12 GMT
I saw this and it makes me appreciate my old bikes. Old bikes are simple, standardized, functional, and elegant. I have no desire to own one of the new high tech rigs.
Ride Safe Jim
So very true, Jim. Old bikes can be upgraded (to a certain level, anyway) but new ones wouldn’t do well downgraded. The old ones are fun to play with and, if you don’t like the change outcome, you can go to a different iteration. Two of my newer bikes, no later than early’90s, are 3 x 8 STI brifter equipped in their current form. I had a good chuckle looking at some old photos of my old Nashbar touring bike. Over the years it’s been painted blue, school bus yellow, and gray. And fitted with 6, 7, and now 8 speed gears. My Cannondale has been flat bar, drop bar, both bar end and brifter shifted, set up for gravel touring, road, and flat bar hybrid, and painted blue and now bbq black. Who knows how my herd of Viscounts will look come Spring?! Messing with bike configurations is almost as much fun as riding, at least when it’s cold with much snow on the ground like today. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by triitout on Jan 7, 2022 20:01:25 GMT
I've somewhat come full circle back to appreciating the old '70's steel Viscount that I started with in my 20's. By my 30's, I wanted faster and lighter, and along came the Vitus 979. By my 40's I needed yet another upgrade to be "competitive". Along came the carbon era, Kestrel 500sci and Trek Madone. By my 50's, I started to reminisce about my old Viscount and got totally caught up in hunting down the various models that I lusted over in my 20's after discovering Busaste's (Steve) thread on the www.ctc.org.uk site. Riding them was more about nostalgia as I was still very committed to triathlon racing. By my 60's, I really began to enjoy the ease of tinkering and just riding without pushing. This has been and continues increasingly to be best served by the Viscounts. Years ago, I thought how strange it would be to go back to my simple old Viscounts as my most ridden genre and low and behold, that's how it's working out. |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 7, 2022 20:01:26 GMT
The bikes I most often use for my daily rides are late 80s early 90s with indexed shifting. In my old age, with ringing ears, and in the wind, it is harder to hear the derailleur; this makes indexed shifting a nice feature. I set these frames up with Shimano Ultegra long cage (6500-6600) derailleurs, setup as 8 speeds, with a triple up front, and down tube shifters. They are dependable, just plain work and provide a nice vintage feeling daily ride. Nevertheless, of my bikes, the older ones are my favorites. I have more frames than complete bikes, so at times the components migrate from one frame to another. I think such things would be difficult on the new high tech bikes.
Cheers Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jan 7, 2022 20:07:28 GMT
Jim and John, I agree. There seems to be a Peter Principle of Bikes in play. Over the past 35 years, bikes have risen to their level of incompetence by evolving into specialized, high-tech sporting equipment wholly unsuitable for the way most people "could" use them. But I assume the bike companies know their markets, which unfortunately means we are in the minority. Yeah, now that I think about it, 60- and 70-somethings riding thousands of miles a year is probably a very tiny minority.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jan 7, 2022 22:31:10 GMT
The bikes I most often use for my daily rides are late 80s early 90s with indexed shifting. In my old age, with ringing ears, and in the wind, it is harder to hear the derailleur; this makes indexed shifting a nice feature. I set these frames up with Shimano Ultegra long cage (6500-6600) derailleurs, setup as 8 speeds, with a triple up front, and down tube shifters. They are dependable, just plain work and provide a nice vintage feeling daily ride. Nevertheless, of my bikes, the older ones are my favorites. I have more frames than complete bikes, so at times the components migrate from one frame to another. I think such things would be difficult on the new high tech bikes.
Cheers Jim
Jim, indexed shifting is great for us old timers, I find as fatigue sets in on a long ride, it’s too easy to miss a shift with friction. Still, most of my early ‘80s back bikes still are friction shifted. For quite a while, I’ve been into bar end shifters for better control and less reach, especially for loaded touring. In the last two or three years I’ve discovered Shimano 2300 brifters (brake and shift levers). These have the “mouse ears” for downshifting and are in my opinion much more reliable and easier for cable replacement than some of Shimano’s higher end units. If you ride drop bars with hands on the hoods, these make for effortless shifting and braking. As far as the Viscounts, the blue touring one gets bar ends ( Shimano 6 speed switchable index and friction. The grey/black Aerospace and the pseudo-Supa get rebuilt as standard as possible, and the black one gets to be the “test bed” with fun improvements. My goal is to put serious mileage on the V’s this year. Disclaimer: serious for this old timer may be floor sweepings to most! Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by triitout on Jan 7, 2022 22:58:27 GMT
I agree with all of you. I've got indexed DT shifters on my '80's bikes, Centurion and Vitus and it does make for quicker, easier shifting. I guess the purist in me is not yet ready to change the original non indexed RDs on the Viscounts......except for my winter project indoor trainer beater V. John, like they always say, it's the quality, not the quantity that counts. Something I hope to learn.  |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 8, 2022 4:53:32 GMT
I’ve discovered Shimano 2300 brifters (brake and shift levers). These have the “mouse ears” for downshifting and are in my opinion much more reliable and easier for cable replacement than some of Shimano’s higher end units. If you ride drop bars with hands on the hoods, these make for effortless shifting and braking. John “wheelson” John, I don't care for "bifters" as the brake lever doesn't feel solid on screaming descents; they tend to move about. Are the St-2300 shifters different?
Cheers Jim
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Post by wheelson on Jan 8, 2022 13:39:40 GMT
I’ve discovered Shimano 2300 brifters (brake and shift levers). These have the “mouse ears” for downshifting and are in my opinion much more reliable and easier for cable replacement than some of Shimano’s higher end units. If you ride drop bars with hands on the hoods, these make for effortless shifting and braking. John “wheelson” John, I don't care for "bifters" as the brake lever doesn't feel solid on screaming descents; they tend to move about. Are the St-2300 shifters different?
Cheers Jim
Jim, The brake levers do move laterally, but only towards the inside. The 2300’s have only a single large lever for braking and one direction shifting, other direction shifting is done by the separate thumb operated levers (“mouse ears”). These levers and hoods feel large in the hand and are pretty stable. This model is much easier for shift cable replacement than the Ultegra’s. The bikes I have them on see mostly rail trail or flat road use anyway so I can’t verify use on screaming descents. Those are probably past my job description anyhow. Again, that’s one of the advantages of too many bikes. 😏 At least that’s what I tell Mrs.W! Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by brianbutler on Jan 8, 2022 13:55:48 GMT
I have one bike with brifters (and indexing of course), a Trek Madone with 2x10 compact gearing. One of the reasons I never use it is because, around here, I frequently have to shift back and forth between really high and really low gears - click click click click left-click click click click click. With downtube friction or indexed shifters it is one or two motions. For a similar reason, I prefer 2x5 or 2x6 gearing and only use three or 4 gear combinations.
Good derailleurs like old higher-end Suntour and Shimano always shift very cleanly. Cheap Huret, Simplex, and Yuk-Fu derailleurs and shifters get tossed during refurb.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jan 8, 2022 14:54:45 GMT
I have one bike with brifters (and indexing of course), a Trek Madone with 2x10 compact gearing. One of the reasons I never use it is because, around here, I frequently have to shift back and forth between really high and really low gears - click click click click left-click click click click click. With downtube friction or indexed shifters it is one or two motions. For a similar reason, I prefer 2x5 or 2x6 gearing and only use three or 4 gear combinations. Good derailleurs like old higher-end Suntour and Shimano always shift very cleanly. Cheap Huret, Simplex, and Yuk-Fu derailleurs and shifters get tossed during refurb. Brian I’m with you on that, all my older bikes have friction down tube or bar end shifters. That’s what I grew up with and still take pretty much everywhere when we go away except to the Outer Banks where it’s long, flat distance with only headwinds to prompt a shift. There will be no brifters on my Viscounts, for sure. I might go with Suntour friction bar ends on the blue V, with its 3 x 6 light touring gears. It runs so well I even hate to mess with it. Best, J “wheelson” |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 8, 2022 15:06:50 GMT
Thanks John, I think I will remain a down tube shifter guy. I very much like the Suntour ratchet shifters. I also like the Dia-Comp ENE shifter and the precious Silver Shifter from Rivendell. I have many shifters from Shimano which are good, but don't ratchet. I really don't like Campagnolo Victory shifters; their tiny barrel makes them barely able to handle a triple. I only have one Simplex equipped bike, my PX10. It has later (Simplex SX630 Rear, SJ A102 Front, Simplex Criterium shifters) 1980s components which shift about as nice as my Campy NR derailleurs; old high end Suntour and Shimano work better. I have ridden old Huret Alvit and the Simplex plastic family; they work, but like to skip gears. Modern freewheels and chains help a bit.
Cheers Jim |
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bendo
Viscount
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Post by bendo on Jan 28, 2022 4:44:46 GMT
The simple reason I don't like most recent bikes' frame geometry is because with a sloping top tube, even at rest the bike looks like it's going uphill. A horizontal top tube has a kind of visual balance to it. b
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Post by wheelson on Jan 28, 2022 13:13:17 GMT
The simple reason I don't like most recent bikes' frame geometry is because with a sloping top tube, even at rest the bike looks like it's going uphill. A horizontal top tube has a kind of visual balance to it. b That’s my preference as well. Somehow when I ride a sloping top tube frame it feels like the frame is too small. Just a perception I’m sure, but still. I’m also not keen on straight tube front forks. I like the looks and ride of a generous amount of rake. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 28, 2022 14:38:19 GMT
Make it a horizontal top tube for me please. I suppose sloping frame bikes may (I am guessing) have a stiffer rear triangle, but what about their super long seat posts? Too me they sort of look like BMX bikes for roadies; is this a marketing ploy? Nevertheless, like John, to me they look way too small. Steel is real for this old guy and a surprising number of young people I have met.
Ride warm
Jim
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Post by brianbutler on Jan 28, 2022 14:52:50 GMT
Absolutely right. The sloping top tubes, long seatpost, and fat, asymmetical shapes of carbon fiber tubes are visually jarring, and of course the straight forks are physically jarring. And while I'm at it, why do "carbon guys" find it necessary to get out of the saddle at every occasion, such as going through an intersection? I know it shouldn't bug me but it does.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jan 28, 2022 14:58:37 GMT
Make it a horizontal top tube for me please. I suppose sloping frame bikes may (I am guessing) have a stiffer rear triangle, but what about their super long seat posts? Too me they sort of look like BMX bikes for roadies; is this a marketing ploy? Nevertheless, like John, to me they look way too small. Steel is real for this old guy and a surprising number of young people I have met. Ride warm Jim I suppose it makes good sense for a race team as in the TDF where the team leader could take any bike on the team in an emergency. Most of my my bikes show no more than two inches of seat post. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by wheelson on Jan 28, 2022 19:11:44 GMT
Make it a horizontal top tube for me please. I suppose sloping frame bikes may (I am guessing) have a stiffer rear triangle, but what about their super long seat posts? Too me they sort of look like BMX bikes for roadies; is this a marketing ploy? Nevertheless, like John, to me they look way too small. Steel is real for this old guy and a surprising number of young people I have met. Ride warm Jim I suppose it makes good sense for a race team as in the TDF where the team leader could take any bike on the team in an emergency. Most of my my bikes show no more than two inches of seat post. Best, John “wheelson” Of course, as I age and getting on and off my bikes with little clearance becomes a problem, perhaps a sloping top tube might be useful - as a last resort. In the meantime I’ll use the “tilt” method for mounting and dismounting on bad days. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by triitout on Jan 28, 2022 23:14:14 GMT
I'll go contrarian. I like riding any bike that fits well. I like the variations of feel of steel/aluminum/titanium/carbon. What first drew me to Viscount was the esthetics of clean lines and no lugs. Carbon has that same esthetic smooth transition from tube to tube. I've never been a fan of ornate lugs. Once I get my dialed in measurements of saddle height and reach close, I forget about the visual look. That being said, I have a love hate relationship with the STI brifters. They are a PITA when they get gunky and won't shift. The simplicity of DT shifters is wonderful and so easy to maintain for a 100% amateur mechanic like myself. I'm a Jekyll and Hyde cyclist. Put me on an old Viscount for a leisurely ride and I'm in my happy place. My competitive alter ego comes out when I sign up for a long time favorite triathlon or find a new exciting venue.If I want to go fast and not be encumbered by slower shifting and an extra 5-10 lbs of weight. That's when either the carbon Trek Madone 5.2 or titanium Motobecane with brifters come out. I still think a one piece from a mold carbon frame can have amazing esthetics. I don't ride it anymore but to my eyes, my old red Kestrel 500sci is a visually esthetic masterpiece. New or old, enjoy the ride! www.pinterest.ie/pin/318981586082833152/Cheers, Michael |
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Post by brianbutler on Jan 28, 2022 23:44:45 GMT
I'll go contrarian. I like riding any bike that fits well. I like the variations of feel of steel/aluminum/titanium/carbon. What first drew me to Viscount was the esthetics of clean lines and no lugs. Carbon has that same esthetic smooth transition from tube to tube. I've never been a fan of ornate lugs. Once I get my dialed in measurements of saddle height and reach close, I forget about the visual look. That being said, I have a love hate relationship with the STI brifters. They are a PITA when they get gunky and won't shift. The simplicity of DT shifters is wonderful and so easy to maintain for a 100% amateur mechanic like myself. I'm a Jekyll and Hyde cyclist. Put me on an old Viscount for a leisurely ride and I'm in my happy place. My competitive alter ego comes out when I sign up for a long time favorite triathlon or find a new exciting venue.I I want to go fast and not be encumbered by slower shifting and an extra 5-10 lbs of weight. That's when either the carbon Trek Madone 5.2 or titanium Motobecane with brifters come out. I still think a one piece from a mold carbon frame can have amazing esthetics. I don't ride it anymore but to my eyes, my old red Kestrel 500sci is a visually esthetic masterpiece. New or old, enjoy the ride! www.pinterest.ie/pin/318981586082833152/Cheers, Michael It looks like the Kestrel's saddle height adjustment tool must be a hacksaw. Is that right?
Brian
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Post by triitout on Jan 29, 2022 1:04:13 GMT
"It looks like the Kestrel's saddle height adjustment tool must be a hacksaw. Is that right?"
Brian
Brian, you are spot on. If I remember correctly, there was still enough seat post insert to give you some latitude so you were not locked in to the final cut. From what I've read some modern and very expensive tri/TT bikes really do have to be cut with little margin for error. That's nuts.
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Post by wheelson on Jan 29, 2022 1:42:08 GMT
"It looks like the Kestrel's saddle height adjustment tool must be a hacksaw. Is that right?" Brian Brian, you are spot on. If I remember correctly, there was still enough seat post insert to give you some latitude so you were not locked in to the final cut. From what I've read some modern and very expensive tri/TT bikes really do have to be cut with little margin for error. That's nuts. Some of the modern bikes are insanely difficult to set up and repair. However, I do tend to mix and match all sorts of bikes with components. I have about and equal number of lugged and lugless frames, and about equal numbers of brifters, down-tube, and bar end shifters. All steel except two aluminum Cannondales. Gearing everywhere from 2x5 to 3x8. I try to tailor the bike to the terrain. For example, my next vacation is end of June on NC’s Outer Banks. Usually hot, flat, with some serious unpredictable headwinds. I’ve used various bikes over the years, this year will likely be a lightened Viscount, 2x5 or 6 gearing, increased water carrying capacity, maybe low 20’s in weight (minimal tools and spares, therefore reliability is essential), comfortable saddle, maybe aero bars to rest my weary shoulders. Totally different from a rail trail day trip or week long self-supported camping bike, what a good excuse to own multiple bikes! Best, John “wheelson” |
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jan 31, 2022 0:09:38 GMT
Speaking of different kinds of shifters, I was recently riding along a busy bikepath and a chatty gent who was stopped with me at the lights complemented my bike (not a Viscount sadly). Now he looked like he rode a lot and he would have been in his late 30s early 40s, but he said to me, looking at my down-tube shifters, "Now why have you got your gear levers down there?" He'd never seen anyone using downtube shifters before! b
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Post by brianbutler on Jan 31, 2022 13:36:18 GMT
Speaking of different kinds of shifters, I was recently riding along a busy bikepath and a chatty gent who was stopped with me at the lights complemented my bike (not a Viscount sadly). Now he looked like he rode a lot and he would have been in his late 30s early 40s, but he said to me, looking at my down-tube shifters, "Now why have you got your gear levers down there?" He'd never seen anyone using downtube shifters before! b I suppose it really is arbitrary and we prefer what we learned. It's easier than learning something new, which would be another arbitrary skill anyway. I still miss the auto headlight dimmer switch on the floorboard. Always where you expect it to be, only one way to use it, no risk of turning on the wipers or signaling a turn, and replaceable for a few dollars. Much like the bikes in my collection.
Brian
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 31, 2022 14:52:03 GMT
FWIW The most modern bike I have owned was a Cannondale System Six with a Super six fork. I built it to run the now defunct Tehachapi Gran Fondo. It was fast and did everything right. But it was just not right for me. For my fast bike I went a bit "high tech retro" with an early Specialized Allez. Despite being carbon fiber it rides like a very light steel bike and suites me better. For just plain enjoyment old steel bikes (I love complex lug work) are my favorites. These bikes are best for pleasant days that need something special to ride. My daily fitness rides are mostly on a Cannondale 3.0 or an aluminum Trek both with Ultegra drivetrains and down tube shifters. They prove dependable, don't rust, somewhat stiff and fast but (sadly) not as "springy" a ride as steel. I will now bore you with pictures.
Cheers Jim
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Post by wheelson on Jan 31, 2022 14:57:21 GMT
Speaking of different kinds of shifters, I was recently riding along a busy bikepath and a chatty gent who was stopped with me at the lights complemented my bike (not a Viscount sadly). Now he looked like he rode a lot and he would have been in his late 30s early 40s, but he said to me, looking at my down-tube shifters, "Now why have you got your gear levers down there?" He'd never seen anyone using downtube shifters before! b I suppose it really is arbitrary and we prefer what we learned. It's easier than learning something new, which would be another arbitrary skill anyway. I still miss the auto headlight dimmer switch on the floorboard. Always where you expect it to be, only one way to use it, no risk of turning on the wipers or signaling a turn, and replaceable for a few dollars. Much like the bikes in my collection.
Brian
Shifters for me are bike-use specific, though as I age, those shifters are migrating to easier to reach locations. Down tube shifters are by far the least complicated, lightest, and trouble free. I find myself reaching down to shift, forgetting that the shifters are sometimes located elsewhere. As far as the auto controls, I too miss the floor light dimmer switch. The difference in car generations can be a downright pain. Mrs. W’s 2018 Jeep has automatic headlight dimmers and the window controls are on the door panel while my archaic 2005 Jeep has stalk mounted dimmers and the window switches are in the center console. It seems I’m constantly fumbling. With cars and bikes there is no such thing as standardization. Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 31, 2022 15:10:04 GMT
As far as cars go, I like controls on stalks (semi-modern) but hate dash mounted touch screens; such high tech hates me.
Cheers
Jim
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,389
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Post by Jem on Feb 1, 2022 14:59:16 GMT
As far as the auto controls, I too miss the floor light dimmer switch. The difference in car generations can be a downright pain. Mrs. W’s 2018 Jeep has automatic headlight dimmers and the window controls are on the door panel while my archaic 2005 Jeep has stalk mounted dimmers and the window switches are in the center console. It seems I’m constantly fumbling. With cars and bikes there is no such thing as standardization. Best, John “wheelson” Floor dimmer switches? That part of the 'design evolutionary tree' has passed by the UK , or I am just driving old cars that don't yet have them? Never in my life seen, heard or used them. You learn plenty of stuff on this forum, and not all of them about bikes. |
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Post by wheelson on Feb 1, 2022 19:29:55 GMT
As far as the auto controls, I too miss the floor light dimmer switch. The difference in car generations can be a downright pain. Mrs. W’s 2018 Jeep has automatic headlight dimmers and the window controls are on the door panel while my archaic 2005 Jeep has stalk mounted dimmers and the window switches are in the center console. It seems I’m constantly fumbling. With cars and bikes there is no such thing as standardization. Best, John “wheelson” Floor dimmer switches? That part of the 'design evolutionary tree' has passed by the UK , or I am just driving old cars that don't yet have them? Never in my life seen, heard or used them. You learn plenty of stuff on this forum, and not all of them about bikes. I'm thinking mid-1950’s Fords that I became intimately involved with as a teenager in the mid to late 1960’s. These were the cars that those of us with meager means literally built from the ground up. Today I barely recognize what I see when I pop the hood. Sort of like old vs new bikes! Best, John “wheelson” |
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Post by brianbutler on Feb 1, 2022 20:34:27 GMT
As far as the auto controls, I too miss the floor light dimmer switch. The difference in car generations can be a downright pain. Mrs. W’s 2018 Jeep has automatic headlight dimmers and the window controls are on the door panel while my archaic 2005 Jeep has stalk mounted dimmers and the window switches are in the center console. It seems I’m constantly fumbling. With cars and bikes there is no such thing as standardization. Best, John “wheelson” Floor dimmer switches? That part of the 'design evolutionary tree' has passed by the UK , or I am just driving old cars that don't yet have them? Never in my life seen, heard or used them. You learn plenty of stuff on this forum, and not all of them about bikes. All American cars through at least the 1960's had floor dimmer switches. I had a number of Chevrolets and Oldsmobiles from the 1950's and 1960's so equipped. Jem, reading your reply I thought maybe the switches were only found on American cars, but I was pretty sure my very first car, a 1963 Volkswagon bus, had one so I looked it up. Sure enough, here is a picture of one from eBay. Maybe they were used only on VW's for the American market.
Brioan
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