|
|
Post by franco on Jun 25, 2020 19:26:02 GMT
I’ve got a pair of wheels from an Aerospace with decent rims and high flange hubs but the spokes have seen better days. Thought about replacing one spoke at a time to retain the tension rather than strip the whole thing, reason being I’ve never built a wheel from scratch before.
Has anyone tried it this way? I can’t see why it wouldn’t work.
Thanks for any advice.
|
|
rodh
Viscount
Posts: 118
|
Post by rodh on Jun 25, 2020 22:03:33 GMT
You're not alone ... I wondered the same myself, but I think it could be very tedious and is still not guaranteed to give you good results. I'm now wondering about starting afresh with some Mavic module 3's.
Keep us posted!
Rod
|
|
|
|
Post by franco on Jun 25, 2020 22:14:50 GMT
At this point I’m thinking there is nothing to lose Rod, other than time and a pack of spokes.
Most bike shops aren’t interested, they are too busy in the middle of a boom and just want to turn out MTB repairs squirting GT85 down everything.
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Jun 26, 2020 0:22:12 GMT
I would cut out the spokes and start over because you can then completely clean the hub and rim. Plus lacing a wheel is fun and will make you feel like the "high priest" you are. Before you do, remove one spoke from each side of each wheel by unscrewing the spoke nipple so you can measure the length, which will eliminate the need to calculate the spoke lengths. Chances are the left and right front spokes will be the same length unless you have a front dynohub or something. The left and right rear spokes are often the same length, but sometimes the right side is a bit shorter.
Another thing to note is whether the threaded spoke end extends past the top of the spoke nipple inside the wheel. It should not, and will eventually rub a hole through the rim strip and inner tube if it does. The reason I mention this is because I have rebuilt several sets of Viscount wheels and the spokes were too long in each wheel. If that is the case, subtract enough from your measurements so the spokes will extend to the bottom of the slots in the spoke nipples but no farther.
If you rebuild a rear wheel you will need a dishing tool or a homemade equivalent because the rim gets centered between the lock nuts, not the hub flanges. A truing stand is nice but a fork can be made to work.
There is a lot of ritual to building a wheel. You can strive to simultaneously achieve the following:
1. Spokes adjacent to the valve hole angled away from the hole (critical for inflating the tires.)
2. Inscriptions on the rim readable from the drive side (nice to have.)
3. Inscription on the hub visible through the valve hole and readable facing forward (nice to have but seldom seen.)
4. For extra credit, the outboard spokes angled back to reduce damage in case something (like a chain) gets caught between the spokes and the fork or cluster. All four items sometimes cannot be achieved if the spokes holes are offset from the center and depending whether a right or left spoke leads or follows the hole.
There are some tutorial videos on Youtube that have you lace the inner and outer spokes on one side of the wheel before moving to the other side. I find that it is better to do the inner spokes on both sides first. Otherwise, it is impossible to do the second set of inner spokes because you cannot insert them and then rotate them past the existing spokes. Maybe in the videos they are building radially spoked wheels instead of cross-3 or cross-4 lacing.
I know all of this can be intimidating but it really is a rewarding undertaking.
Good luck.
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Jun 26, 2020 2:29:34 GMT
I’ve got a pair of wheels from an Aerospace with decent rims and high flange hubs but the spokes have seen better days. Thought about replacing one spoke at a time to retain the tension rather than strip the whole thing, reason being I’ve never built a wheel from scratch before. Has anyone tried it this way? I can’t see why it wouldn’t work. Thanks for any advice. Yes, you can rebuild them one spoke at a time if you're not ready to take the plunge off the deep end. By the way, Brian's how-to-do it post is excellent as he hits pretty much every point.
First, take a photo of the wheel just in case things go crazy at some point just so you have a reference. Then loosen all the spoke nipples a turn or two each all around the wheel. If you start cutting out spokes, you can cause a warp in the rim and make truing much harder. Remove a spoke for measurement, perhaps several just in case the one you pick was replaced at some point and not part of the original set. Also, check all the new spokes to verify they are all the same length. Mistakes happen from the distributor - ask me how I know! Another point, double butted spokes are much more flexible and are easier to weave in and out rather than the straight 2.0mm 14ga. There also those who believe that a more flexible spoke reduces spoke breakage. We're currently experimenting with this at the shop I contract with for some large fellows wheels who habitually break spokes near the spoke head. Don't reuse the old nipples, you'll regret it.
Start replacing at a known point, such as the valve hole. I usually run the spoke nipple in until the last spoke thread is flush at the spoke side of the nipple. Then progress around the wheel slowly, a turn at a time. Make sure you keep the interlacing consistent, it'll break your heart if you miss one and the wheel is (was) finished.
As Brian said, most manufacturers use the same length spoke on both sides of the rear wheel. If this is the case, you will usually end up with about 4 more turns of the nipple on the dished side to accomplish the dish. As you can see, the tension on the dished side will be greater than the non-drive side. Those who use shorter spokes on the dished side will usually find them to be about 2mm shorter. Personally, I almost always use the same size spokes.
You may want to use a thread lubricant or a thread locker. A lube will keep the spoke nipple from binding and the spoke from winding up. A locker will keep the spoke from loosening as the wheel is used. Traditionally, boiled linseed oil was used for both purposes. Several manufacturers like Wheelsmith make a product for this, usually quite expensive. Lately, I've been using purple Loctite, the weakest lock for small screws. Work fast, though.
Best, John "wheelson" Wilson Greensburg, PA USA
To measure the dish or offset of the rear wheel without a dishing gage or a truing stand by rest the wheel on a flat surface, supported by the outside lock nut surface. Then stack coins on the flat surface up to the rim 180 degrees apart. Flip the rim upside down and you should observe the same coin stack height.
|
|
|
|
Post by franco on Jun 26, 2020 8:36:15 GMT
Thanks for the detailed replies the advice is much appreciated!
A great idea taking a picture first in case I lose track. I’ll look at the front wheel first, seems a bit more straightforward.
|
|
|
|
Post by brianbutler on Jun 26, 2020 10:48:15 GMT
Thank you, Wheelson, for the excellent tip about loosening the spokes before cutting. I have not warped a rim yet but now I see how that could happen. If I am cutting out spokes it is usually because they are corroded and the nipples won't turn, at least not easily. I guess cutting opposing spokes and alternating sides of the wheel would eliminate the chance of warping while maintaining the efficiency of the wire cutters. What do you think?
I love the coin feeler gauge idea for dishing. I'll add a roll of pennies to my toolbox!
Brian
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Jun 26, 2020 13:23:28 GMT
Some rims are more prone to warping than others. And then if you break a spoke, that's the same as cutting one out while the others are tensioned. I just like to take as many chances for frustration as possible out of the equation. Same goes for checking the spoke length for even the new spokes. The owner of the shop I contract with many times orders just a wheel's worth of spokes for a special job. These come unboxed, so I have occasionally found a mismatched spoke in the lot. As the price of spokes has increased quite a bit in the last few years, many of the vendors list spokes in quantities of 75 or so and packed in an unmarked plastic bag so beware.
Another odd thing to watch out for is the spoke wrench size. Used to be when using Park color coded wrenches, green was Euro, red was Japanese, and black was TD(or DT). Now, Wheelsmith nipples are green, so if you use the red coded wrench there is a good chance of rounding the nipple. So if the wrench seems to be loose, double check the wrench size.
A lot of odd tips, I know, but I build or repair a good many wheels in a season, not counting my own. Ten years in a shop "back in the day" plus another six in my post-engineering retirement so I've seen a lot of wheel aggravation over the years and would like to alleviate as much pain as possible for my friends on this forum. Nothing kills the desire to tackle a wheel build that a bad early experience.
Best,
John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by franco on Oct 5, 2020 19:32:12 GMT
Watched this earlier, a great video and thought it worth sharing
|
|
ks1u
Viscount
Posts: 76 
|
Post by ks1u on Oct 6, 2020 1:34:35 GMT
Whichever method you choose to remove the existing spokes, I would take them all out and follow the adventuresome and educational route and rebuild the wheel. It will be easier to polish the rim and hubs without spokes and you can give them as much of a mirror finish as you care to.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Oct 6, 2020 4:36:56 GMT
I have several wheelsets with tubular rims. I toy with the idea of using the hubs to build clincher wheelsets. The learning curve would be steep as I have never built a wheel; perhaps someday. Local bike shops no longer do such things. Liability and lack of knowledge prevent this. Also it would be cheaper to buy a wheelset than have them build one.
|
|
|
|
Post by cusqueno on Oct 6, 2020 8:54:04 GMT
I have several wheelsets with tubular rims. I toy with the idea of using the hubs to build clincher wheelsets. The learning curve would be steep as I have never built a wheel; perhaps someday. Local bike shops no longer do such things. Liability and lack of knowledge prevent this. Also it would be cheaper to buy a wheelset than have them build one. In my experience, it is easier to re-rim a wheel than to build from scratch, although I haven't done much of either. Obviously the spokes, or most of them, have to be in good condition and the same length for both rims. Not sure if the latter would be true for tubular rims and 700c or 27 1/4 clincher rims. Anyway, you would just line the rims up and tape them together, then go round moving one spoke at a time from the old to the new rim, making sure they go in the exactly corresponding hole and are laced (under / over) in exactly the same way. Once complete, you need to fully tension and true the wheel. That's the fun part. I'm sure there are videos online. |
|
|
|
Post by cusqueno on Oct 6, 2020 9:06:05 GMT
I have several wheelsets with tubular rims. I toy with the idea of using the hubs to build clincher wheelsets. The learning curve would be steep as I have never built a wheel; perhaps someday. Local bike shops no longer do such things. Liability and lack of knowledge prevent this. Also it would be cheaper to buy a wheelset than have them build one. Perhaps if you built the wheel to the extent of lacing it up (correctly!) and fitting all the nipples, an LBS would be prepared to tension it and true it for you? This almost happened to me by accident when I took a hub and rim to one of a chain of bike shops (Evans for UK readers) to be built up. They did this but claimed they couldn't true it for some reason. They charged me much less than they were going to and I took it to an LBS who finished it for a few pounds. |
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Oct 6, 2020 16:42:39 GMT
A good idea as most local bike shops can true a wheel. I don't know if I would trust their work. My experience with local bike shops is very negative. After my heart bypass I paid a highly rated local bike shop to replace some crank bearings; they put them in backwards; once healed, I had to redo their work. It seems they had no experience with caged ball bearings. I once had to show a shop how to mount tubular tires as they had never seen them. My impression, is with rare exception, our local bike shops only remove old parts and replace them with new ones. They are very good at selling new bikes, adjusting indexed shifters as well as replacing tires, brake pads, cables and chains. I think I must learn to do my own wheels. My biggest concern is spoke length as new rims will most likely require different spokes. Also, in my old age I seem to drop and never find small parts, so I will need extra nipples. Perhaps a winter project.
|
|
|
|
Post by franco on Oct 6, 2020 19:53:16 GMT
A good idea as most local bike shops can true a wheel. I don't know if I would trust their work. My experience with local bike shops is very negative. After my heart bypass I paid a highly rated local bike shop to replace some crank bearings; they put them in backwards; once healed, I had to redo their work. It seems they had no experience with caged ball bearings. I once had to show a shop how to mount tubular tires as they had never seen them. My impression, is with rare exception, our local bike shops only remove old parts and replace them with new ones. They are very good at selling new bikes, adjusting indexed shifters as well as replacing tires, brake pads, cables and chains. I think I must learn to do my own wheels. My biggest concern is spoke length as new rims will most likely require different spokes. Also, in my old age I seem to drop and never find small parts, so I will need extra nipples. Perhaps a winter project.
Haha, some of that is so true. That’s really poor putting bearing cages in the wrong way, it’s as basic as it gets, how can a bike mechanic get that wrong? Having said that one of my local bike shops is decent, he’s an old guy and remembers a lot of the old stuff. The other two shops try to be helpful but they don’t have that experience and they advise upgrading with new parts like you said. |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 7, 2020 3:07:24 GMT
It's always fun to be able to use some of my 1960's-1970's bike shop knowledge into the shop I've been contracting with for about seven years since my engineering retirement. I get to do all the 3 speed hubs, wheel truing/building, and "old school" (pre-index shifting) repairs and such. I also end up scrounging my stash for parts to do repairs at the shop. The shop owners are bike school trained but have only about ten years experience. Very few old shops in the immediate area are still open.
If you like the old bikes, the best advice I can give is learn to do as much as you can for yourself. With the exception of a short Schwinn factory service school, my bike knowledge has pretty much come through on the job training, with me being both the trainer and trainee.
The good news is there are some pretty good videos available as well as some excellent advice available through various internet sites and forums such as this one. As far as wheel building, try all the options from a simple rim transfer to a complete build. Pick up some old wheels and go from there. As far a tensioning, check some known good wheels, pluck the spokes, and get a feel and sound of the existing tension. If you're building with used rims and hubs, trust me, you won't be able to get equal tension in 36 spokes. Of all the wheels I've built since I was about 16 years old until now at 72, I've used a tensiometer on very few. "The greatest virtue of wheel building is patience".
Best,
John "wheelson"
|
|
