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Post by brianbutler on May 13, 2020 12:57:11 GMT
I've been trying to understand lubrication from an "engineering" perspective so I can do a better job of refurbishing and maintaining bikes. In my opinion, minimal lubrication is usually best to avoid dirt buildup and increased maintenance. My goal is smooth operation and silence. Here is how I handle various parts/assemblies:
General threaded hardware (Headset nuts and rings, bottom bracket cups and lock ring, stem bolt, seatpost binder bolt, brake pivot bolts, set screws, etc.) during overhaul - grease or copper grease if I'm worried about seizing.
Headset, crank, pedal, and wheel bearings - During initial overhaul, replace cages with loose balls for more bearing surface , pack with grease. During overhaul, clean and repack. No periodic lubrication.
Brake levers - no lubrication.
Downtube, stem, and bar-end shifters - During overhaul, very light grease on bearing surfaces. No periodic lubrication.
Brake calipers - During overhaul and periodically, a tiny drop of oil on the pivots and the points where the spring ends contact the arms.
Derailleurs - During overhaul, grease coils and contact points of all springs. During overhaul and periodically, a tiny drop of oil on each pivot and spring ends.
Chain - Leave factory lubrication on new chain. Periodically (when I can hear the chain) remove and clean chain in solvent, dry and apply teflon dry-lube, periodically apply teflon dry-lube. I usually only solvent-clean the chain once or twice at approximately 1000 mile intervals before it is worn out and replaced.
Once in a blue moon I might put a drop of oil
Freewheel - Factory lubrication only, freewheel often replaced during initial overhaul. I made a jig to clean the bearings inside the freewheel without taking it apart and oil can be drizzled back in if necessary. I will post some pictures and explanation soon. Generally I consider a freewheel a long-lived but cheap and expendable item. I will post links and reviews of a couple of replacement 5-speed freewheels separately.
I am interested to hear other theories of lubrication, particularly the exciting question of grease vs. oil.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on May 13, 2020 13:10:02 GMT
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Post by franco on May 13, 2020 14:20:56 GMT
Interesting that you opt for grease on most parts which is possibly the correct way but I find it holds dirt on external parts like a 3-in1 oil does.
I use grease on bearings, seat posts, stems, axles... anything not exposed (as much). As for things like derailleurs, chains, calipers, levers, I usually use a silicone lubricant like GT85 but periodically clean with a citrus degreaser and use a light bike oil just the once before repeating the process. Sometimes spray GT85 down cables as well to stop any friction.
Found car wax like Mer brings frames up nice, chrome and aluminium rims as well, gives some protection as well, apparently.
Quite funny how obsessive we can get with this stuff and the array of products available. Got thinking about it yesterday when I was working on the old 3 Speed, it’s got an oil porthole above the bottom bracket, similar to the ones on Sturmey Archer hubs. Those bikes just got oiled and still lasted decades, I know they are different machines, built to last rather than built for speed, but does make you wonder.
Agree with you on Sunrace, I had to replace a derailleur and it was the only thing available in my budget. It’s not very well made, seems flimsy and inaccurate even using friction shifters. I wouldn’t fancy using it with index shifters that is for sure. Had more luck with a Sunrace freewheel, that has performed well but doesn’t look like it will last long.
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rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
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Post by rodh on May 13, 2020 14:21:00 GMT
Interesting! ... nice write up on lubrication strategy too, although I don't use dry lube (or xx40 on anything except for cleaning or water displacement!)
On the freewheels, especially the older ones with wide teeth (slow wear) I find they last a very long time if you use a front mudguard with splash protection (to keep grit off the chain). I use nickel plated chains so I can see when they're in need of routine cleaning and re-lube with oil (frequently).
Inside the freewheel I use light oil so the pawls don't wear, but the freewheel doesn't drag (0W30), and I only overhaul when it's dragging (dirty/old lube?) or getting noisy (dry) on the pawl clicks.
Your Shimano suggestion is at a good price if it's the genuine article and you want 14-28T. I can see 15-24 was OEM fit from the Viscount AP manual, and I know Steve's quoted 14-24, so this low gear is a nice bonus. I'd be slightly worried about the Crane RD though, because 28T's the maximum stated by Sutherlands, so may wear out the springs quickly.
Another nice option is the Suntour Ultra 6 which, at less than 27mm wide, fits in the space a 5 speed uses. The later "Winner Pro" body (4-slot, gold lockring) is well made with machined races and 2x labyrinth seals. The sprockets are easy to replace individually as they're splined, and it uses a standard tool!
Hope this helps, Rod
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,388
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Post by Jem on May 13, 2020 17:11:56 GMT
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,388
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Post by Jem on May 13, 2020 17:12:51 GMT
This is a very useful thread on lubrication by any standards - thanks for all the info.
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Post by brianbutler on May 14, 2020 0:28:59 GMT
Some time ago I tried reading about the theory of lubricating machines but I could not find a definitive source, for example a mechanical engineering text. It seems to be somewhat haphazard except in cases like automotive engines. The main thing I came away with is that oil is appropriate when it can be circulated and filtered (or changed) to provide continuous replenishment of clean lubricant at bearing surfaces. Otherwise grease is preferable because it stays put and generally does not transport contaminants into the bearing zone by flowing. However, it does not transport wear products out of the zone either.
I generally agree with franco's comment about using grease in internal locations. When I mentioned the derailleur springs I was thinking of the A and B tension springs that are usually enclosed.
I agree with rodh about not using XX40 for lubrication. On my chains I use Finish Line Dry Bike Lubricant (teflon). The oil used for derailleur pivots, etc. is Tri-Flow with the narrow applicator tube, just a tiny drop.
I used to oil my chains more frequently but they quickly picked up dirt and became a mess to clean. With my current program, the chain is generally always dry but presumably has a teflon coating. It is always silent. The net effect is very little greasy dirt accumulation but possibly more chain replacements. If I am riding stone dust bike paths I have to replace the chain after 800-1000 miles no matter how often I clean it. The instant I start riding on that surface the chain accumulates an abrasive coating of dust. If I ride asphault I get 2000-3000 miles out of a chain with maybe two or three painless cleanings. I check the chains with a wear gauge and replace them when they exceed 0.75% "stretch."
A weird thing that I learned is that grease is made of oil and soap.
Brian
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rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
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Post by rodh on May 14, 2020 2:01:05 GMT
A & B springs? I'm used to P & B springs in the rear derailleur (pulley and body).
Found an interesting snippet earlier ... only the top pulley (aka guide, gear or simply "G" pulley) is called a jockey wheel ... this is the one with sideways play to allow it to follow gear shifts.
Also, the Crane was supplied with 9T steel pulleys (though it accepts 10T), with 2x bronze bushings. Almost indestructible!
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Post by brianbutler on May 14, 2020 11:03:40 GMT
A & B springs? I'm used to P & B springs in the rear derailleur (pulley and body). Yes, P&B is better terminology. I often hear about "B" tension so assumed the other must be A. But anyway, it is important to grease the P&B springs, but not with PB&J.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on May 14, 2020 14:26:09 GMT
I've been trying to understand lubrication from an "engineering" perspective so I can do a better job of refurbishing and maintaining bikes. In my opinion, minimal lubrication is usually best to avoid dirt buildup and increased maintenance. My goal is smooth operation and silence. Here is how I handle various parts/assemblies:
General threaded hardware (Headset nuts and rings, bottom bracket cups and lock ring, stem bolt, seatpost binder bolt, brake pivot bolts, set screws, etc.) during overhaul - grease or copper grease if I'm worried about seizing.
Headset, crank, pedal, and wheel bearings - During initial overhaul, replace cages with loose balls for more bearing surface , pack with grease. During overhaul, clean and repack. No periodic lubrication.
Brake levers - no lubrication.
Downtube, stem, and bar-end shifters - During overhaul, very light grease on bearing surfaces. No periodic lubrication.
Brake calipers - During overhaul and periodically, a tiny drop of oil on the pivots and the points where the spring ends contact the arms.
Derailleurs - During overhaul, grease coils and contact points of all springs. During overhaul and periodically, a tiny drop of oil on each pivot and spring ends.
Chain - Leave factory lubrication on new chain. Periodically (when I can hear the chain) remove and clean chain in solvent, dry and apply teflon dry-lube, periodically apply teflon dry-lube. I usually only solvent-clean the chain once or twice at approximately 1000 mile intervals before it is worn out and replaced.
Once in a blue moon I might put a drop of oil
Freewheel - Factory lubrication only, freewheel often replaced during initial overhaul. I made a jig to clean the bearings inside the freewheel without taking it apart and oil can be drizzled back in if necessary. I will post some pictures and explanation soon. Generally I consider a freewheel a long-lived but cheap and expendable item. I will post links and reviews of a couple of replacement 5-speed freewheels separately.
I am interested to hear other theories of lubrication, particularly the exciting question of grease vs. oil.
Brian
All very good advice from Brian. At the shop, as part of a tune up, we measure the chain then clean it thoroughly with alcohol (avoid in-place spraying with WD-40 as it tends to pull lube out of the chain bushings, and WD-40 is not a permanent lube, mostly a "moisture displacer", thus the name Water Displacer, 40th try). The shop practice is then to use a wax based chain lube, I personally like the Teflon dry-lube. Grease on all bearings, shop uses the Park grease, I prefer the green Phil grease on the heavy duty areas like bottom bracket and the Teflon light for the headset and a light coating for the stem and seat post. We clean and wipe down with WD-40 (I also like PB Blaster with Teflon), and use Triflow drops on all pivot points. Avoid compressed air on assemblies as it tends to drive grit into things like freewheels. As far as the best types of grease for wear applications, I did a lengthy study in my past life in the Engineering Mechanics Lab for a major machine tool manufacturer. Unfortunately, that was in the 1980-90's and time is not on my side as far as my memory goes and most of my documentation ended up as "trade secret". Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
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Post by cusqueno on May 14, 2020 14:52:55 GMT
A & B springs I'm used to P & B springs in the rear derailleur (pulley and body). Yes, P&B is better terminology. I often hear about "B" tension so assumed the other must be A. But anyway, it is important to grease the P&B springs, but not with PB&J.
Brian
The B pivot is where the derailleur attaches to the hanger. It is usually, but not always sprung. For instance the very good Suntour mechs from the 70s and 80s all (IIRC) had unsprung B pivots. There is often an adjustment to the pivot - the derailleur angle adjustment. The A pivot and spring is of course where the cage attaches to the parallelogram. It's sometimes adjustable for tension.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,388
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Post by Jem on May 14, 2020 18:52:24 GMT
If anyone is looking for niche articles/books that are hard to find (and more mainstream ones) then this site is really useful. It's a bit like Scribd if you ever used that, but it's partially free. You can donate to them if you want. I have no link with them at all b-ok.cc
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Post by franco on May 14, 2020 21:45:08 GMT
Talking of books, this one goes for over £50 these days, it’s a really good bible for the bicycle mechanic and worth downloading for free. Sutherlands Handbook
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Post by cusqueno on May 15, 2020 7:51:53 GMT
This appeared in my FaceBook feed - an easy way of lubing chains apparently. Many of the comments are sceptical or critical though. /?vh=e&d=n
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,388
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Post by Jem on May 15, 2020 17:44:57 GMT
Talking of books, this one goes for over £50 these days, it’s a really good bible for the bicycle mechanic and worth downloading for free. Sutherlands HandbookThanks for that, just grabbed it - looks great EDIT- just had good look in that Sutherlands....man alive, that is the definition of the word 'comprehensive'. Talk about detail!!
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Post by franco on May 15, 2020 20:28:38 GMT
Talking of books, this one goes for over £50 these days, it’s a really good bible for the bicycle mechanic and worth downloading for free. Sutherlands HandbookThanks for that, just grabbed it - looks great EDIT- just had good look in that Sutherlands....man alive, that is the definition of the word 'comprehensive'. Talk about detail!! Good isn’t it, possibly cuts out hours of google searching and scanning forums for information on old parts and what is interchangeable. I stumbled over it trying to find more detail on cottered cranks as anything in depth seems to have been lost in the mists of time.
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Post by brianbutler on May 15, 2020 21:56:19 GMT
Talking of books, this one goes for over £50 these days, it’s a really good bible for the bicycle mechanic and worth downloading for free. Sutherlands HandbookIt is the bible. Thank you for this link. I have wanted this book for ages. I might even have it printed and drilled for a binder. Brian
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Post by wheelson on May 15, 2020 23:42:13 GMT
Yes, Sutherlands is THE go-to reference. I have the Fourth Edition, 1985, which pretty much covers the "classic era" and a later copy on CD. There are some really good repair and maintenance aids online, most free. For you members who like to dabble in wheel building: www.prowheelbuilder.com/spokelengthcalculator is one I use all the time, even for the modern stuff I work on at my post retirement bike shop gig. Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
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rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
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Post by rodh on May 16, 2020 22:02:22 GMT
For you members who like to dabble in wheel building: www.prowheelbuilder.com/spokelengthcalculator is one I use all the time, even for the modern stuff I work on at my post retirement bike shop gig. Best, John "wheelson" Wilson Thanks for the URL John ... I had to smile when I saw neither Nisi or Lambert on their lists of wheel and hub manufacturers! There's a book I've thought of buyjng by Roger Musson, and a similar calculator on his website ... www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php ... do you have any opinion on his stuff? I'm starting to wonder about my rusty spokes and what their specs might be (ie. spoke lengths) to restore a couple of Nisi Evian Super Sport 27x1 1/4" rims on Lambert sealed bearing hubs ... Thanks, Rod
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Post by wheelson on May 17, 2020 3:59:54 GMT
Rod, You can still use the www.prowheelbuilder.com/spokelengthcalculator without putting in any rim or hub manufacturers. Just put in the number of holes and cross, measure the effective rim diameter and the hub dimensions and it will calculate your spoke length. I just tried it with some totally bogus numbers and it spits out a calculated spoke length. You can of course doublecheck that by a quick measurement of the existing spokes. Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
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rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
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Post by rodh on May 17, 2020 13:31:03 GMT
Rod, You can still use the www.prowheelbuilder.com/spokelengthcalculator without putting in any rim or hub manufacturers. Just put in the number of holes and cross, measure the effective rim diameter and the hub dimensions and it will calculate your spoke length. I just tried it with some totally bogus numbers and it spits out a calculated spoke length. You can of course doublecheck that by a quick measurement of the existing spokes. Best, John "wheelson" Wilson Thanks John - that's exactly what I did, but they both come up with spoke lengths 10mm shy of actual ... not confidence inspiring! I must be doing something wrong, which is why I was asking for Nisi/Lambert data for the AP so I could find my mistake ...
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Post by wheelson on May 17, 2020 14:51:30 GMT
Rod, I'll double check my wheels later today. I'm not using Nisi rims but looking at the rim cross sections in the Nisi rim in the Sutherlands 4th Edition, you may find the error in the ERD or effective rim diameter. Sutherlands calls this bead seat diameter and it's not the inner diameter of the rim but the actual point where the spoke nipple head seats inside the rim. A wee bit harder to measure but there's a way using two opposing spokes with nipples and marking the point that they cross at the center. That's the kicker, for most old rims the ERD or BSD is not published. And I believe the Nisi rims used double eyelets, so that could account for an additional 5-10mm. Really tough, this advice thing online, not knowing your background, and me not wanting to sound like a know-it-all! Just know I'll help anyone the best I can. Best, John "wheelson"
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Post by wheelson on May 17, 2020 19:33:10 GMT
Rod, I did some quick measurements of what I could get to:
1a) 27in. original front wheel, Viscount hub/Birmalux clincher rim. Measured spokes, approximately 297mm
b) Measured a bare front hub and came up with numbers for Prowheelbuilder: 36 hole, 3 cross, flange diameter (hole to hole) 67mm, axle locknut outside to outside 98mm, axle locknut to flange 15mm both sides, flange to hub center 34mm both sides. Standard BSD (ERD) from Sutherland's for a 27in rim is 630mm BUT the Birmalux is a dimpled rim so there is a correction factor of -5 (since the dimples decrease the inside diameter) so I used a 625 for ERD. PWheelbuilder calculated spoke length: 297.8mm
2a) Measured spokes for some sewup (sprint) wheels I recently built up, Viscount hubs, Birmalux sewup rim. 36 hole, 4 cross = 302mm using the longer 16mm nipples. These rims have the double eyelets but are not listed in Sutherland's.
b) Sutherlands gives a standard BSD of 700c rims as 622. They also give a correction factor for Nisi sewup rims with eyelets as -6 for the box rims and -9 for the aero rims. I went back to the PWheelbuilder calculation and switched the ERD to 616 and the cross to 4. This gave me a calculated length of 304.6 as opposed to the measured length of 302, again using 16mm nipples. The 2.6mm difference could well be within the difference in Birmalux and Nisi rims. c) For your application with Nisi rims, my guess is that the 622-6 = 616 for the ERD would be correct.
4a) I didn't measure the required inputs for the rear hub but I can do that if you need them. Also note that I typically use the same length spokes on both sides of the rear hub with approximately a 4 turn difference. References typically list a 2mm difference for a 5 or 6 speed hub dish.
Hope this helps, if you or anyone else on the forum need help from me, please don't hesitate to ask.
Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
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rodh
Viscount
Posts: 121
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Post by rodh on May 17, 2020 21:26:49 GMT
Rod, I did some quick measurements ... 36 hole, 3 cross, flange diameter ... Eureka! 3 cross, not 2 cross, and everything looks rosy again! I managed to get the complicated bits right, but a little experience is worth a ton of calculations ... Many thanks John!
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