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Post by brianbutler on Oct 5, 2019 16:08:18 GMT
I just finished overhauling a pair of Lambert pedals from a 1972 Aerospace Pro, first generation. Both pedals were very rough turning and showed considerable rust on the spindles and problems with the finish on the pedal cages. They came apart easily except for the bearing needles, which were cemented into the races with dried grease, dirt, and rust that had washed in. Removing the needles required degreasing with WD-40 to soften things up, soaking in hot mineral spirits to remove the grease, soaking in Evapo-Rust to remove the rust, then using a small awl to find a needle in each bearing that could be pried out. This created enough space to pick the remaining needles out, 24 needles per bearing. These were further treated in Evapo-Rust and turned out very clean and smooth. They are made of a hardened steel that was not itself rusty but covered with rust from other components. Here is a photo of the pedal cages before refurbishing. I believe the peeling paint was the original factory finish.
The cages were stripped to bare metal with paint stripper and tumbled in a non-abrasive ceramic medium to knock off remaining crud. The bare castings turned out to be fairly crude and maybe not the best alloy. Here is a photo of the pedal cages after stripping and tumbling.
The cages were then primed and painted with Rustoleum metallic silver paint, quite close to the original color. The spindles, spacers, and screws were degreased and derusted. To repack the bearings I wiped a light coat of marine grease onto the races to hold the needles during insertion and inserted 23 needles into each race with tweezers. I omitted one needle from each bearing to leave room for a little more grease. I added a thicker coating of grease to the inside of the bearings, inserted spacers on each end of the cage, inserted the spindles, end "nuts", and retaining screws. Here is a photo of the refinished and rebuilt pedals.
The refurbished pedals are smooth as silk but have a little to much end play. Next time I am at the hardware store I'll look for some thin spacers to take up the slack. Alas, I am missing the Lambert dust covers. They seem like they would be hard to find so if anyone has a photo of these covers, please let me know and I might try to fabricate some.
Regards, Brian
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Post by whippet on Oct 5, 2019 17:31:08 GMT
Looks like a great job.
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,375
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Post by Jem on Oct 6, 2019 6:14:35 GMT
Brian, that is a great write up for others who might be facing the same job- I have heard good things about Evapo-rust but never used it myself.
They look really good now and if that is the standard you achieve on pedals I have every reason to believe your restoration job on the bike will be top notch too!
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Post by cusqueno on Oct 7, 2019 9:19:19 GMT
"The refurbished pedals are smooth as silk but have a little to much end play. Next time I am at the hardware store I'll look for some thin spacers to take up the slack. Alas, I am missing the Lambert dust covers. They seem like they would be hard to find so if anyone has a photo of these covers, please let me know and I might try to fabricate some." The Viscount manual has, if I recall correctly, instructions about how to take out the end play using ... thin spacers. Obviously an issue with this type of bearing. It can be disconcerting if you aren't expecting a pedal to move a bit from side to side, but doesn't really cause any problems. I have some pedal dust caps. The pictures that are immediately to hand are a bit odd in that they are black pedals (factory finish) and for some reason the bit in the middle of the caps has been put on the wrong way round, so that the 'L' of Lambert is on the inside. This might have been for some reason during the Lambert to Viscount transition or even that the pedals were for sale on their own or to another bike builder. Pedal caps by ShouldbeCusquenobutF**krwontletmeintomyproperaccou, on Flickr Black-pedal-1 by ShouldbeCusquenobutF**krwontletmeintomyproperaccou, on Flickr
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Post by brianbutler on Oct 7, 2019 13:50:01 GMT
Another interesting thing in your photos is the orientation of the inner cap with the little hole that receives the pin on the end of the spindle. When I disassembled my pedals I did not take "before" pictures because I thought it would be obvious how to reassemble them, which it never is when you are looking at a small pile of parts. For each pedal I had a spindle, cap with hole, two washers/spacers, and a screw. I initially assembled them the way yours are shown but ended up with two washer/spacers left over. I assumed they had to go on the outboard side under the cap so the spindle would be flush with the crank. But that pushed the cap out too far to engage the pin. I turned the cap around and used the washer underneath. This works and allows space for additional shim washers if desired. It also treats both bearings the same way, with the washer/spacer covering the flange of the bearing race and coming flush with the pedal casting.
I don't really don't know which way is right but this seems reasonable. Since the dust caps often fall off it should be easy to see some other examples.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Oct 7, 2019 13:53:00 GMT
I was also wondering if the dust caps are metal or plastic. Brian
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,375
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Post by Jem on Oct 7, 2019 20:32:01 GMT
I have a pdf of the manual somewhere if you need it give me a shout (I think's its quite large but might go via email or if not a Dropbox maybe?)
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Post by cusqueno on Oct 9, 2019 14:48:26 GMT
I have a pdf of the manual somewhere if you need it give me a shout (I think's its quite large but might go via email or if not a Dropbox maybe?) The whole Viscount dealer manual (for the US, during Yamaha's time) runs to 304 pages. This is the one referring to pedal shims. Viscount_manual_pedal_shims by John Cockaday, on Flickr
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Post by brianbutler on Oct 9, 2019 21:50:14 GMT
Very interesting. I see that indeed I have the cap washer upside down. I found it necessary in order to engage the locking pin when both shims were installed, as they were when I took the pedals apart. Now I can see that the locking pin is a separate part. Mine were frozen into the spindles and I assumed they were integral to the spindles. But I think they have to be fully inserted into the spindle to be effective, so mine are still short. Oddly, the exploded view in the manual shows shims on both ends of the spindle but the cross section in the assembly note omits the shim. My locking pin is not long enough to use both shims with the cap washer in the correct orientation. I think I will reverse the cap washer and omit the outboard shim. I will post the results.
Also, the shims shown in the exploded view are not the "available" shims mentioned in the assembly note. The factory shims are much thicker that 0.010".
Thanks for the detailed information.
Brian
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Post by brianbutler on Oct 10, 2019 0:04:35 GMT
Cap washers have been reversed and the pedals now look like they should. I had to remove one factory shim (0.0635" thick) from the right pedal and both of them from the left to prevent binding. The right pedal end play is nearly perfect. The left is noticable but I'll probably get used to it if I actually use these pedals.
Brian
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,375
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Post by Jem on Oct 11, 2019 16:53:24 GMT
Thanks for dropping that in there John...I've been rather busy lately but would have gotten round to this eventually Brian, honest!
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 22, 2021 8:18:34 GMT
I have a pdf of the manual somewhere if you need it give me a shout (I think's its quite large but might go via email or if not a Dropbox maybe?) The whole Viscount dealer manual (for the US, during Yamaha's time) runs to 304 pages. This is the one referring to pedal shims. Viscount_manual_pedal_shims by John Cockaday, on Flickr Just found this again. Invaluable thanks John. Deserves a bump.
In getting the Supa Sport back on the road I've been considering all kinds of options re pedals. Formerly I had MKS Sylvan quill pedals on it but they long since got pressed into service on another bike. I don't have a pedal that's nice enough for this bike, so I started looking around. First gen Dura Ace gruppo didn't have a pedal. I think it was the AX group where they appeared for the first time. I considered trying to hunt down a pair of NOS Suntour Superbe first gen: similar era and classic quill design. But they're rare as hen's teeth and twice as pricey. And really they're not Dura Ace so what's the point?
That leaves going back to the original Viscount pedal. A sensible choice on most levels. I have three pairs with five dust caps after, yes I did, I lost one on a ride... So I've been paranoid about ever using them again. Anyway I've bitten the bullet and decided I'll put the work into polishing up a pair to look really nice, then maybe super glue those f*ckers in place!! (AHA! I just noticed they recommend using Loc-tite to stop the caps falling off!)
But I forgot about the play in these pedals. OMG, there's no way I can ride on something like that, as beautiful as those needle bearings are, that's shocking! "What's that??! Oh it's only the pedals." (two kms later) "What's that?! Oh that's right, it's those pedals." It'd be like Groundhog Day.
One question: it doesn't say what material the Yamaha shims were. Nylon? Brass? Aluminium? Steel? Does anyone know? b
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 22, 2021 10:55:30 GMT
The needle bearings themselves are not to blame for the lateral play in the pedals. The needles exactly fit into the races, which are pressed into the pedal bodies. The problem is the difference in width between the spindle and the body. I think you could make the shims out of anything because they are basically just spacers to prevent the fixing bolt from bottoming out.
Brian
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 22, 2021 11:48:54 GMT
Thanks for the reply Brian. Actually I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought the bearings were at fault. On the contrary, they're the best thing about the pedals!
I'm just concerned that any shim one uses will be sandwiched between moving parts will it not? Hence I was curious as to what material might be most durable in that situation. Now that I think about it, a piece of nylon that thin is going to last about 5 mins, so it has to be a metal of some kind. I suppose anything that's well-enough greased would do, wouldn't it? b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 22, 2021 13:17:35 GMT
Turns out 11mm x 15.8mm x 0.005mm is not such a common size for shim washers.
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 22, 2021 19:10:48 GMT
Thanks for the reply Brian. Actually I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought the bearings were at fault. On the contrary, they're the best thing about the pedals! I'm just concerned that any shim one uses will be sandwiched between moving parts will it not? Hence I was curious as to what material might be most durable in that situation. Now that I think about it, a piece of nylon that thin is going to last about 5 mins, so it has to be a metal of some kind. I suppose anything that's well-enough greased would do, wouldn't it? b The shims would be between moving parts but only "sandwiched" if you tried to completely eliminate the end play. You might feel the end play but it is harmless. Not to be argumentative, but I'm not a big fan of Viscount pedals for a number of reasons:
1. I think the choice of needle bearings is a mistake. They have end play, gum up very quickly, and are more difficult to overhaul than ball bearings, which work fine. 2. Sometimes you can't overhaul them because the fixing bolt gets frozen.
3. I have heard but not experienced that the spindles are prone to snap, possibly another Viscount metallurgy problem, 4. The aluminum castings are very crude and cannot be polished well. I have painted some and they look better than polished. 5 Lost dust caps.
For me, there is also the problem of quill pedals vs. wide feet. I usually use MKS Sylvan Touring pedals, which are flawless although a bit heavier.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jun 23, 2021 1:27:49 GMT
Thanks for the reply Brian. Actually I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought the bearings were at fault. On the contrary, they're the best thing about the pedals! I'm just concerned that any shim one uses will be sandwiched between moving parts will it not? Hence I was curious as to what material might be most durable in that situation. Now that I think about it, a piece of nylon that thin is going to last about 5 mins, so it has to be a metal of some kind. I suppose anything that's well-enough greased would do, wouldn't it? b The shims would be between moving parts but only "sandwiched" if you tried to completely eliminate the end play. You might feel the end play but it is harmless. Not to be argumentative, but I'm not a big fan of Viscount pedals for a number of reasons:
1. I think the choice of needle bearings is a mistake. They have end play, gum up very quickly, and are more difficult to overhaul than ball bearings, which work fine. 2. Sometimes you can't overhaul them because the fixing bolt gets frozen.
3. I have heard but not experienced that the spindles are prone to snap, possibly another Viscount metallurgy problem, 4. The aluminum castings are very crude and cannot be polished well. I have painted some and they look better than polished. 5 Lost dust caps.
For me, there is also the problem of quill pedals vs. wide feet. I usually use MKS Sylvan Touring pedals, which are flawless although a bit heavier.
Brian
Speaking of a good pedal for wide feet, check out SR SP-155. Fairly abundant on eBay and they have a nice vintage look. I have them on my blue Viscount, my Austro Daimler, and also the Schwinn Voyageur SP. Screw in pedal caps, too. If interested, they can probably be seen on my Blue Viscount shown on my Flickr link on the DFR8 posts. Best, John “wheelson”
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 23, 2021 2:43:27 GMT
Speaking of a good pedal for wide feet, check out SR SP-155. Fairly abundant on eBay and they have a nice vintage look. I have them on my blue Viscount, my Austro Daimler, and also the Schwinn Voyageur SP. Screw in pedal caps, too. If interested, they can probably be seen on my Blue Viscount shown on my Flickr link on the DFR8 posts. Best, John “wheelson” Thanks for the tip John. I've never heard of SR as a maker of pedals. Lots of great vintage models around. I learnt something today! b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 23, 2021 3:01:54 GMT
.. .but I'm not a big fan of Viscount pedals for a number of reasons: [/div]
1. I think the choice of needle bearings is a mistake. They have end play, gum up very quickly, and are more difficult to overhaul than ball bearings, which work fine. 2. Sometimes you can't overhaul them because the fixing bolt gets frozen.
3. I have heard but not experienced that the spindles are prone to snap, possibly another Viscount metallurgy problem, 4. The aluminum castings are very crude and cannot be polished well. I have painted some and they look better than polished. 5 Lost dust caps.
For me, there is also the problem of quill pedals vs. wide feet. I usually use MKS Sylvan Touring pedals, which are flawless although a bit heavier.
Brian
[/quote] Totally agree with you on all those points Brian. MKS pedals leave the Viscount pedals in the dust. Have you seen their new "Next" range? Same pedals but with higher level of finish (!) and triple-sealed bearings. Amazing! www.mkspedal.com/?q=en/product/node/331I remember when I was a kid, made in Japan was a blanket term that meant crap quality (later it would be made in Hong Kong and then made in China). But the thing is, it was almost never true, particularly in specialist goods like bike parts. Now of course everyone looks for the made in Japan mark to check it's high quality. But a lot of these firms like MKS, Nitto and Shimano are just doing what they've always done. b
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 23, 2021 10:57:46 GMT
Bendo, thanks for that MKS Next link. They certainly look like high quality pedals. The really good news is that MKS seem to have dropped the price of the legacy MKS Touring pedals, so I just ordered two pair on Amazon for $29 USD per pair, one to upgrade my Viscount Gran Touring and one for a future project. I hope they don't discontinue the current line. If so, I will hoard. I like the ability to service pedals. If Viscount has taught me anything, it's that sealed bearings aren't sealed and they are tedious to replace.
Brian
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Post by wheelson on Jun 24, 2021 15:36:28 GMT
Speaking of a good pedal for wide feet, check out SR SP-155. Fairly abundant on eBay and they have a nice vintage look. I have them on my blue Viscount, my Austro Daimler, and also the Schwinn Voyageur SP. Screw in pedal caps, too. If interested, they can probably be seen on my Blue Viscount shown on my Flickr link on the DFR8 posts. Best, John “wheelson” Thanks for the tip John. I've never heard of SR as a maker of pedals. Lots of great vintage models around. I learnt something today! b SR was Sakae Ringyo, a maker of cranks, seat posts, and other aluminum bike parts. They bought out Suntour when the latter went bankrupt in 1988 and became SR Suntour. All the early SR, Suntour, Dia Compe, and Shimano components were quality. I remember in the mid to late ‘70s when Dia Compe opened their North Carolina USA facility. They brought some really nice brake prototypes to our shop for a photo shoot as there was a commercial photographer next door. This was the Gran Compe line of side and center pulls, black and silver. It must have been ‘74 or ‘75 as I installed those prototypes on a beautiful “kool orange” Schwinn World Voyageur. I tried to talk them out of the components but of course the would have none of that. The photo shoot was for Bicycle Dealers Showcase magazine. And the Dia Compe USA became Cane Creek. Best, John “wheelson”
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jun 24, 2021 23:39:25 GMT
SR SP-155, one of my favorites! For whatever reason, I have suffered more clicks from new pedals than from old.
Ride Safe Jim
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 25, 2021 7:56:49 GMT
SR was Sakae Ringyo, a maker of cranks, seat posts, and other aluminum bike parts. They bought out Suntour when the latter went bankrupt in 1988 and became SR Suntour. All the early SR, Suntour, Dia Compe, and Shimano components were quality. I remember in the mid to late ‘70s when Dia Compe opened their North Carolina USA facility. They brought some really nice brake prototypes to our shop for a photo shoot as there was a commercial photographer next door. This was the Gran Compe line of side and center pulls, black and silver. It must have been ‘74 or ‘75 as I installed those prototypes on a beautiful “kool orange” Schwinn World Voyageur. I tried to talk them out of the components but of course the would have none of that. The photo shoot was for Bicycle Dealers Showcase magazine. And the Dia Compe USA became Cane Creek. Best, John “wheelson” Thanks for the little history lesson John. Definitely fills in a few blanks for me.
I wish someone would revive Suntour like they've done with Chater Lea, Ideale and Rene Herse. Some of the most reliable and versatile derailleurs and shifting systems ever. There's still nothing on the market to rival a Suntour ratcheting thumb shifter. (Although Sun XCD, IRD and Microshift are partially filling that gap). b
b
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Post by brianbutler on Jun 25, 2021 11:11:22 GMT
Any time I see a bike listed for less than $50 USD that has the Suntour V and ratchet shifter system, I buy it. I have become fairly adept at disassembling, cleaning, and refurbishing all of those parts and they always come out like new. I have them installed on almost all of my bikes. Here is an example. I plan to grab this one when I am in New Hampshire in a week or so.
It looks like Suntour V-GT, Suntour V Comp, and Suntour Power Ratchet. Also has nice hubs (maybe French), brakes, other parts, and decent tires.
Brian
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 25, 2021 11:54:06 GMT
A man after my own heart! I have several different V series rear mechs and never let one pass me by. Alas they are not so common any more in Aus. And after once spending $60 on a mint pair of Suntour shifters on eBay, I keep a look out for them on old bikes too. I once found four [4] pairs of Suntour thumb shifters, all in good nick, at a jumble sale in a bike shop no less and they wanted $5 the lot! I had to work hard to keep a poker face that day, I tell you! b
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rodh
Viscount
Posts: 118
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Post by rodh on Jun 26, 2021 15:28:24 GMT
I may be swimming against the tide here, but the Olimpic 64 pedal (made by Zeus) was a nice looking Campy clone, and fitted to many Viscount Aerospace Pro's. It has a screw-in dust cap too! (and the spare part from an MKS Sylvan Prime is a good replacement if it gets scratched or lost).
On the issue of play in the L/V pedals - OK, end play doesn't matter (for reassurance it can be shimmed-out) but the vertical play is important. I had a pair of these where water got in, and through use with rust inside the play opened up to ~0.5mm vertically. I have not fixed these yet as I am struggling to get them apart but the solution is probably to press in a new bearing once the shaft has been reground (or fit bigger needles if that is the only problem part).
In the meantime I'm looking for some replacements so please PM me if you're happy to sell! Thanks, Rod
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jun 27, 2021 6:51:34 GMT
I carefully pulled all 96 bearings out of these pedals and got onto them with the polishing mop and some compound. I'm no expert for sure but they've come up looking quite good. I've ordered some 0.05mm brass sheet to make shims, because life's too short to have unnecessary play even if it's not damaging! www.flickr.com/photos/66328467@N02/51272641032/in/dateposted-public/
Polishing these pedals and looking at them up close I can't help comparing them to MKS Sylvans and the difference in workmanship. That leads me to thinking about differences in culture, Thatcherism, Brexit, the whole dang shootin match. b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jul 5, 2021 13:35:42 GMT
Well I've finally managed to cut out some shims and I've got a Viscount pedal with no side-to-side play! Woohoo!
In the end the shims were not whatever crazy diameter I said before. They are D = 15mm x d = 12mm x 0.05mm thick brass sheet.
It took two shims each end of the spindle to totally remove all play. In hindsight I could have used 0.1mm sheet and only needed one each end. It was tricky to cut the washers out but I got better with practice. Using a circle template was the secret.
b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jul 6, 2021 2:38:24 GMT
They're so tricky at first they seem impossible but I've become better at cutting these things with practice.
Interestingly the second pedal only needed two shims to eradicate play.
If anyone would like me to cut them some shims for their pedals, send me a message. b
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Post by brianbutler on Jul 6, 2021 13:40:20 GMT
Nice work. I wonder if these inexpensive punches would work:
Brian
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