bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jul 27, 2017 10:36:06 GMT
Hi all, long time no post. I recently took Victor in to my very good lbs to change back to its original fork from the Tange fork I had installed about 12 months ago. Got a call from a sheepish mechanic saying the headset had folded like a Coke can! They've got no idea how it happened. None of them had ever see a fail like it. Suspect internal weakness like a crease. Externally the tube was fine. It happened when they were pressing the cups into the headtube. b :0 Victor Headtube fail by nanseikan kendoVictor Headtube fail by nanseikan kendoVictor Headtube fail by nanseikan kendoANyone ever had this happen to a Viscount or seen on another bike? Apart from my trusty (geddit?) Spacemaster, I'm now Viscount-less. All three are off the road for various reasons. I only have one bike I can ride. I'm like a normal person for God's sake! b
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Post by cusqueno on Jul 27, 2017 12:51:44 GMT
That is sad. Was the LBS putting back the cups that they had taken out? Otherwise, I might suspect them of trying to force the wrong size on.
I suppose replacing the head tube in a lugged frame would be fairly straightforward for a competent brazer, but with the necessary paint job, probably not worth the cost?
How much time before a suitable replacement frame comes along?
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jul 27, 2017 13:12:29 GMT
Thanks John, it was a bit sad! They were putting back the original cups. I asked whether the tool they were using could have somehow grabbed the cups and twisted, creating a torsion that led to the fail. But they said no, their tool has bearings that mean the pressure plate is free to rotate so as to avoid just that possibility.
It's also the strongest angle to work on a tube, so it's a bit of a mystery.
It is I suppose fortunate that it was Victor with his lugged head tube, because, as you say, it's a relatively straightforward repair for an experienced frame-builder. But more than I'm willing to spend on Victor right now. I've got a bare Aerospace Pro frame to do something with, as well as the Supa-Sport. The latter is also a bare frame waiting to get DA dropouts, which is about as necessary as a boob job, but something I've set my heart on. Hopefully my framebuilder will get around to it in the next 12-18 months...
Good Viscount frames in this part of the world are few and far between. Most that come up are Sebrings. Very few Aerospaces. b
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Post by triitout on Jul 27, 2017 16:48:34 GMT
Bendo, it's a shame shipping is so expensive. There have been some real good deals on Craig's List stateside. I feel your pain!
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 27, 2017 17:28:43 GMT
ANyone ever had this happen to a Viscount or seen on another bike? I have a headset press, and have installed many a headset; I have never seen anything like that! The pressure needed to compress (versus bend) a tube must be immense. Perhaps they somehow put more pressure on one side than the other? During install, if a cup is initially crooked in the head tube, it will put more pressure on one side of the head tube than the other. In such a condition, the headset may not seat flush with the head tube. When this occurs, you remove the cup and start over; the cup must be properly aligned with the head tube. Someone might try extreme force to make a crooked cup seat flush with the head tube which might lead to a damaged head tube. I hope you soon find a replacement frame. All the Best Jim
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,375
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Post by Jem on Jul 27, 2017 20:40:49 GMT
Ouch. That is painful to look at.
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 27, 2017 21:13:10 GMT
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 28, 2017 14:25:48 GMT
Bendo, this subject had a strong response on Classic Rendezvous; some of their responses follow.
"Depending on how much the tube was overcooked, you need 2 to 6 tons of force to get the tube starting to yield. So my bet is a powered hydraulic workshop press, and the operator concentrating on a crooked cup, hoping it would straighten itself out (they never do), and not noticing the tube collapsing"
"Hi Jim. The frame is not the highest quality but this should never have happened. I'd say they owe your friend a replacement frame.
"I have never seen anything like that before. Very sad to see. How would one NOT notice the head tube deforming before it reached that point? Hard to imagine a lugged steel bike frame could be like an empty beer can reaching a point of sudden complete collapse under a shoe. Was it a case of: Stubborn fit? ... Just apply more force or get a bigger sledge hammer. I'd be curious about the response of the bike shop. I mean, beyond "Sorry we crushed your bike, mate." The shop may likely have insurance covering damage to a customer's property. Australian contract law for services purchased, is similar to the USA. "Traders must ensure that contracts are performed with all due care and skill. In the event the consumer’s property is lost or damaged, particularly if as a result of negligence on the part of the trader, the consumer may seek compensation to cover this loss." And, legal issues aside, I would surely want to make my customer happy, even if it meant paying a builder of his choice to effect a complete repair and restoration of the frame. Whatever it takes! Especially in this age of the Internet, rampant social media, and viral videos, word of mouth and bad publicity can really destroy a business. My local TV stations news features frequently cover consumer complaints. But rarely if ever are those concerning cases directed against real brick and mortar establishments; they would NEVER let an issue go that far or even face a civil court appearance and face further judgement against them for additional damages including attorney fees and court costs. Really, what could the shop's defense possibly be. "Well, Your Honor, we don't really know what we did wrong. But, we don't feel we should be held responsible for the property entrusted to us for service... which we somehow destroyed."
"Bet the shop offered him a deal on a new Trek as a consolation."
"Not too many members here are likely to visit a bike shop in Oz, but shouldn't the guilty shop's name be publicized?"
And my favorite "Probably used a hydraulic workshop press with a beer powered operator"
The bottom line, the opinion of many experts is that they owe you a frame.
Cheers Jim
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jul 29, 2017 6:01:02 GMT
Many thanks Jim for your feedback and for sharing those responses. Lots to think about... b
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jul 29, 2017 6:06:50 GMT
The mechanic did say he had to reface the headtube because he noticed the previous headset had some daylight between the cups and the tube. Perhaps 2) the refacing was not parallel, causing the downward force to be unevenly applied, or b) the previous headset installation (done by the same shop but different mechanic) had created the conditions for the fail.
The mechanic who worked on it said he didn't apply that much force. I think he said it was less force than he would normally apply to effect a successful installation. Hmm. b
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Aug 2, 2017 2:07:10 GMT
Hmm indeed!
Jim
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
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Post by robt on Aug 4, 2017 9:54:25 GMT
Bendo,
I feel your pain.
It's frustrating when a good plan goes badly wrong.
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jan 12, 2018 6:04:31 GMT
Thought I'd update progress on this saga. Firstly, I may have a lead on what happened. The average jobbing bike mechanic will usually do both the top and bottom headset bearing cups at the same time, using one of these. A particularly careful mechanic (or a frame-builder) OTOH will only press in one at a time. Doing both cups allows the (rare) possibility that one might catch and redirect the force a little bit off line. After months of Victor hanging on the wall and me slowly realising there was a hole in my cycling life :,( I approached a local frame-builder about replacing the headtube. I was all set to go and was stripping the frame of parts, when I found there were other issues with the frame to be dealt with. At that point I decided to retire Victor for good. A week ago I decided that the VA Pro frame I had hanging on my wall should be brought into service, but with Victor's forks. DO you know how hard it is to get decent chromoly forks for 27" wheels that have enough offset to avoid toe-overlap? In Aus, bloody hard! So now I've got Frankenvictor. The only bits of him the same as the bike I originally acquired all those years ago are the forks and the hubs. So now I have my HPGTB back in service. He's running beautifully as you'd expect. franken victor by 弁慶, on Flickr I've had fun over-speccing him. Firstly, the Pro frame, that's definitely too much! Next, the Dura Ace centre-pull brakes. Lastly, the Nitto Hi-crown stem. They're the most egregious additions, but as you can see there's lots of other lovely stuff too like Honjo muguards (the front looks like it needs slightly longer stays). This is the first Viscount frame I've had that has the built in derailleur hanger. It's interesting because the Suntour VGT-Luxe rear mech doesn't sit right. It's too vertical and so the amount of chain-wrap is on the edge of acceptable. So I might revert to the Pro's original Crane rear mech. Will have to change the freewheel too probably. The other big difference is the chain line. Victor, being a five speed, must have had a BB spindle a bit shorter that the Pro. With a single front ring I get a straight chainline only on the smallest cog. So I'll be studying all the BB removal/replacement threads with real interest now! b
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Post by triitout on Jan 14, 2018 0:35:42 GMT
I like it.....alot! Why not get creative and produce something unique? All of the Aerospace line is just a mush-mash of components on the same frame anyway. Make your life easy and put the Crane back on. Any reason not go with the double crank just to avoid the BB spindle/chainline issue? If you really want to get crazy, try a Taiwan "Viscount" mattress saddle. It'll look like the GP "Allrounder" model and they work well with the upright tourist handlebars. Keep creating!
Cheers, Michael
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,375
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Post by Jem on Jan 14, 2018 18:37:55 GMT
That just oozes cool Bendo...very nice!
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jan 15, 2018 5:26:05 GMT
A very nice build; it looks great!
Jim
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bendo
Viscount
Posts: 538
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Post by bendo on Jan 15, 2018 12:43:52 GMT
I like it.....alot! Why not get creative and produce something unique? All of the Aerospace line is just a mush-mash of components on the same frame anyway. Make your life easy and put the Crane back on. Any reason not go with the double crank just to avoid the BB spindle/chainline issue? If you really want to get crazy, try a Taiwan "Viscount" mattress saddle. It'll look like the GP "Allrounder" model and they work well with the upright tourist handlebars. Keep creating! Cheers, Michael I like this approach! You're spot on about mish-mash being Viscounts modus operandi! Not sure about the old 'quilted' saddles though. I used to have one on a cheap BMX back in the day. Not nice. I did consider going to back to a double on the front, but since I use the big ring most of the time it would still be the same problem. Actually the chainline isn't great full stop. I suspect that the original wheels were dished a bit wider than the current ones which are contemporary 27 inchers. Thanks for the positive comments. It's great to be back on a Viscount. It's been a good few months! b
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Post by 54roadie on Jan 24, 2018 19:15:41 GMT
I like it. Especially the single ring crank set up. Shorter axles can be had and will get your chainline in proper alignment. As for the derailleur, I have no problem with the same VGT luxe I put on my Gran Prix; it sits perfectly parallel to the chainstay, as it's supposed to. Hmmm? "B" screw adjustment, or perhaps a bent screw? Maybe there's a bit of something in that part of the derailleur or hanger? If not, you could always just file the tab on the hanger a bit to shift things forward. I'm just pondering out loud - you know your way around your bikes, and have likely checked all these. Nice bike. Good luck.
Best regards, Frank
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