robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
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Post by robt on Jul 19, 2018 8:20:02 GMT
Following the DFR6 'tales from the factory floor', if anyone is travelling down the M5 through Worcestershire on their way to a holiday in the South West, or passing Malvern for any other reason, you might want to take a couple of hours out of your schedule to take a tour of the Morgan car factory. Booking details can be found here. £22.50 well spent. Follow this link for some pictures of my visit there yesterday. This car was my favourite, headed for its lucky owner in the USA, I think: DSC02876 by RMT@261, on Flickr
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Post by triitout on Jul 19, 2018 23:52:45 GMT
Very nice pics Robt! I'm partial to the olive/sage green color a few rows down. My fantasy is a classic hand built with an all electric powertrain plugin (BEV). I've seen that it's been done with the Mini Classic and some VW Beetles. Merge the classic with zero emission vehicles would be a winner! Cheers, Michael
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robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
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Post by robt on Jul 20, 2018 8:15:45 GMT
Very nice pics Robt! I'm partial to the olive/sage green color a few rows down. My fantasy is a classic hand built with an all electric powertrain plugin (BEV). I've seen that it's been done with the Mini Classic and some VW Beetles. Merge the classic with zero emission vehicles would be a winner! Cheers, Michaell Michael, You'll be wanting one of these then. It is so efficient, it offers a 25% reduction in the number of wheels required! DSC02819 by RMT@261, on Flickr
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Post by cusqueno on Jul 20, 2018 12:05:27 GMT
I remember, when I was a child, some friends of my parents rolling up in one of the original three wheelers with the V-twin out front. Good to see they are still making versions of that, alongside the electric ones.
My favourite is probably the four seater soft top VO66 JPF. Although I am not enamoured of the pale turquoise colour.
From the outside the cars give the impression of being quite simple, but the construction views show that they are at least as complex inside as any modern car - probably more so due to the complicated frames and aluminium body panels. I can't see these carbon composite frames catching on though ...
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Post by blackwizard on Jul 21, 2018 22:25:59 GMT
I love the Morgan’s and that factory tour is brilliant, where else do they still make things like this in the old way, with hammers!
Got to slightly disagree on the electric side of the post. I have a TVR and it makes noise, at full revs a lot and I don’t believe I would enjoy gunning it through the mountains in Italy half as much as I do now without being able to play music on the gear box whilst climbing up hairpin bends with the roof off. I do the same climbs on bikes and the sound of me panting and wheezing isn’t quite the same..........
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Post by triitout on Jul 21, 2018 23:06:24 GMT
There's so much research and development and money going onto the battery side. When the solid state batteries with 1 minute charging time and 300+ miles of range as well as, zero emissions, and no oil changes at a lower price than ICE cars are available, beauties like these will be very attractive compared to soulless mass produced cars. I'm going on 1 year commuting in an all electric Nissan Leaf and for the right usage, it can't be beat. Within the next few years, the Leaf will be an antique but like my Viscounts, a very useful antique!
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Post by blackwizard on Jul 22, 2018 0:52:23 GMT
I live in Shanghai part of the time and we have had an explosion of electric cars here. This has been helped by the fact that they restrict the number of new number plates issued each month, you want one you go into the aution and buy one and the current cost is around £10,000, thats supply and demand for you I am afraid. There are cars on the road worth a fraction of the value of the plate. The government have therefore issued a green plate (yes it's green colour as opposed to blue) and these are much cheaper and available in larger numbers so more affordable and easier to get. The upshot is we now have an even more congested city, you can visibly see more cars on the road over the last 18 months and whilst they are not pumping out CO2 the ICE cars are and spend longer sat in traffic than before hence we have more pollution. Not only that I think it is fair to say China does not have the cleanest power generation in the world, they rely on coal powered generators which are responsible for most of the pollution in the country and this surge in clean cars has simply added to this.
To say electric cars are zero emmissions I believe a bit naive, the power may come via a lovely clean cable in the garage but it isn't getting there without some emissions. In other countries with cleaner electric, and I can think of Switzerland as one, then this is closer to the truth but how many places are there like that compared to the Chinas of the world? Incidently a friend in Zurich has just bought a Tesla and he made the stunning announcment that he can nearly get to St Moritz where his family are from on a full charge.........I pointed out there may be a small issue in his plan in that nearly isn't enough especially for a weekend trip to which he advised I was right and as such he will also keep an ICE car for that job................well done, to go green required two cars as opposed to one, not sure I quite see the saving there but hey, what do I know LOL
No doubt electric cars are the way forward as a solution to the pollution issues and one day dwindling oil supply but for now I think the hype is greater than the achievements, as is said above the Leaf is soon going to be a relic of the past in the same way that the Prius under the new Government rules will not be classed as an electric vehicle as it cannot travel far enough on a full charge. Like iPhones these things will be obsolete so fast that it becomes more polluting in terms of manufacturing costs and disposal, again all creating more emmisions that the greenies seem to ignore when talkig about zero emmissions...........well it's Sunday so I always feel like preaching on the sabbeth
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Post by triitout on Jul 22, 2018 2:19:50 GMT
Great discussion going black wizard. What you are seeing in Shanghai is the govt's attempt to economically incentivize EV adaption. Right now, nobody knows the best path forward and it's one giant experiment. For most, it's not about being a treehugger. It's about cost to acquire and cost of ownership. When those are more favorable on an EV, people start to look at EV as a viable alternative. Congestion problems have always been there but as separate issue with their own set of solutions regardless of fuel source. Talk to me about Long Island/NYC! Maybe after you and I get our licenses taken away, the mode of personal transportation will be soulless self driving EV fleet cars. The experts say that's where we're heading. As far as China goes, they will keep pushing new technology so as to be the dominant economic force in the solar/battery new tech area. They will have the power to make the legacy fossil fuel companies into dodo birds. Royal Dutch Shell and BP are already clumsily trying to diversify into the battery charger field in the UK. Isn't 2040 a target to end ICE sales in the UK?
As for zero emissions, I would say that the countries that produce electric with the highest % renewable (solar, wind, hydro) are closest to true zero emissions. Studies have shown that even with dirty electric, you are still ahead in lower emissions with an EV. Change is incremental and the ultimate goal is 100% renewable energy. Even in Texas, wind has become cheaper than coal and it's the economics that has caused coal plants to close in favor of wind. In my own case, I'm generating my electric from rooftop solar at about 96% of my needs so it can be done. Again, economic incentives made it possible. There aren't enough tree huggers to make a dent.
There was a recent study showing that it is cheaper to invest in renewable energy, EV technology and climate change mitigation as opposed to the endless cost of rebuilding weather related damage, dealing with climate change refugees, health related problems, etc. If you believe the science of climate change is real, it's time to do what you can within your means and needs to start turning the ship in a different direction. I'm sure there will be many missteps along the way but it's alway been like that. 2 steps forward, one step backwards!
Yes, I still need an ICE car too because of the limited range and lack of charging outside of my home, but again I accept that change is incremental and it's a start! In the last 9 months, its 6000 miles EV and 2000 miles ICE.
I think what started this discussion was that the Morgans are just flat out cool and that's what really sells cars whether it be ICE or EV.
Cheers, Michael
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Post by blackwizard on Jul 22, 2018 2:47:07 GMT
It is interesting to hear views on this and I’m not wishing to be negative about EV but I do feel many claims are made that just don’t quite add up at times. We are on the back of the VW scandal after being incentivised in the UK and pushed by the government to buy diesel cars to now be told sorry, got it wrong so please scrap these and buy EV. We are also now getting penalised for driving diesels by the very same people who pushed us to buy them.
I’m 55 years old so I’m the category of being a Grumpy Old Bugger but I do embrace the recycling efforts and other energy saving ideas, I am part of a group in Shanghai who actively promote greener ideas and issues so whilst not being a tree hugging environmentalist as some of my friends are I’m also not a dinosaur ignorant to the problems.
Like you said this thread started with the Morgan which is an amazingly cool bit of kit but I’m just not sure about it with an electric engine anymore than I would be in fitting electric shifters and disc brakes to my Lambert, some things for me are just best left alone but we all have different views, that’s what makes discussions good :-)
Have a good day
Nick
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Post by theformeremployee on Jul 29, 2018 21:43:06 GMT
Isn't 2040 a target to end ICE sales in the UK?
Yes, but our newspapers have made this sound like after 2040 is when you can't USE ICE engines. Like much they say, it's not true but why spoil a good story to inflame the credulous public ?
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Jul 31, 2018 5:55:40 GMT
Isn't 2040 a target to end ICE sales in the UK? Yes, but our newspapers have made this sound like after 2040 is when you can't USE ICE engines. Like much they say, it's not true but why spoil a good story to inflame the credulous public ? California is trying to legislate something like this. If they do, I wonder were we will get the electricity to charge the cars? We currently have too little to supply the grid in the summer (caused by air-conditioning). Supporters say solar power is the answer, but most cars would be charged at night. I doubt it possible to make enough batteries to store the needed daytime solar power and also be installed in all new cars. Environmental concerns rule out new hydroelectric dams. The public goes nuts if you mention nuclear power. Wind energy is pretty well fully exploited around here. Perhaps we can build a lot of new coal fired power plants? I think the ICE will have to stay until we have fusion; unless ignorance kills it. Germany is supposed to initiate the ban in 2030; we shall watch and see. The ICE can run just fine on algae biofuel, which is carbon neutral; but there is little support.
I do like algae biofuel; It can run power plants as well as my old MG. Algae Biofuel
Cheers Jim
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Post by triitout on Jul 31, 2018 18:30:46 GMT
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Post by blackwizard on Jul 31, 2018 21:58:44 GMT
I had read a similar article to yours on where will the electric come from although I don’t have the source now. Basically it suggested in the UK it would require 3 new power stations to provider enough energy for all electric cars. To build a power station takes on average 20 years from the go ahead. To get the go ahead takes on average 10 years to get through planning, public protest, parliament etc not to mention the cost........do the maths, it isn’t going to happen but like was said above why let reality get in the way of sensational stories for politicians and the media?
No argument in alternatives to ICE but people need to be realistic and stop making sweeping statements that cannot realisticlay happen.
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Aug 1, 2018 0:13:09 GMT
I turn 90 in 2040 so the ICE ban will happen after (or at the end) of my time. What I will really need in 2040, is a holodeck.
Cheers Jim
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Post by blackwizard on Aug 1, 2018 0:51:55 GMT
Never say never Jim, who knows what is round the corner.
For the record I will be 77 then so hope I’m still pushing pedals round at that stage :-)
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Post by triitout on Aug 1, 2018 2:12:53 GMT
I'll be 86 so who knows if they'll still let me drive. As long as I can bike like Robert Marchand the 105 year French guy with the 13+ mile 1 hour velodrome time. Gotta stockpile old parts (for old farts!). This climate change battle is for the future generation's health and welfare. Let's use our collective wisdom to start steering the car down a different road. If you believe the science of 2 degree temperature increase and it's effects on climate change, is primarily caused by the increased CO2 emissions of which about 70% are from burning fossil fuels ( 2/3 of that 70% are electric and heating and 1/3 transportation), one is left with the conclusion that alternatives such as renewable energy are a must. Sure there will be problems, missteps and dead ends but the hope is that the goals that need to be met are pursued as hard as possible. Things change dramatically over a 20+ year period. EVs are not going to flood and overwhelm the market. Adaption will probably be slower then expected if and when it really does take off. When there's money to be made, there's plenty of motivation for innovation. Wasn't it Churchill who said "We will never surrender!" We need to tackle climate change with that attitude! Yet one more good read from CNN www.cnn.com/2018/07/31/opinions/climate-crisis-is-upon-us-opinion-intl/index.html
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,375
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Post by Jem on Aug 1, 2018 8:11:54 GMT
The commentators in the UK media have settled on an attitude of "the world is getting hotter, it's causing some problems ,nothing much we can do, we must adapt- but on the plus side British grape growers are having a bumper summer, so it's not all bad". (on TV news this is often the last humorous item , after the ones on raging forest fires, lack of water in reservoirs, and old people dying because of the heat)
The problem with this ostrich head in the sand thinking is that we haven't even seen the real repercussions of global warming yet, and it will spiral very quickly when it happens.
The other barriers to grown up thinking on this problem are - the strangle hold of fossil fuel company's on elected representatives via backhanders or very highly paid positions on their boards (often for doing next to nothing except the MP just to vote for the petro-chem interests as bills are passed to protect their prominence.
The other issue is that countries are reluctant to share new tech that they have developed , as it is a competitive market place. There isn't a spirit of 'we are all in this together' and it's bigger than one company , or even one country - it crosses national boundaries.
And it requires such large investment to research and develop sustainable alternatives that the Govt must step in and coordinate it - much of the break even targets on wind/solar are very long term. I don't see the free market as mechanism for this. The problems with a Gov dept. solution is that they do get led down blind alleys and then they become discredited and lack support , they also get knowingly misled by charlatans, and they also get caught up in their own target setting agendas where they 'succeed' in some respect, but not in the wider sense.
I'm going to make myself very unpopular now buy saying that the mind set of increasing national GDP % growth per year is untenable in the long run- it's tied up to this particular issue that we are talking about and the sooner we measure a countries 'wealth' in terms of 'well-being' not product the better. To measure national or global success in terms of how much of the planet we have used up in a year, and then expect that to keep rising, is going to lead us to a doomed future.
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Post by theformeremployee on Aug 1, 2018 21:59:18 GMT
My fourpen'orth in this informative debate is that the built environment could be so much better organised. One of the easiest things to pass into Building Regulations is to have PV generation on every roof, and rainwater recycling to flush lavatories. Those two single acts would help so much in what is becoming a drier environment - something recognised in Australia for years. It is far simpler in new-build, of course, I would not advocate fitting everything to every house - just impractical. If every supermarket, though had a roof full of solar panels, the power to keep the fridges cold would come from the sun, not fossil fuel. There would be some to spare to charge up the delivery vans people insist they should use to have their shopping delivered. The technology exists yet isn't used to the max. But using an electric bike to bring your own shopping home makes even more sense.
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Post by blackwizard on Aug 1, 2018 22:36:32 GMT
I agree and there is so much more that can be done im a relatively easy and cost effective manner.
Sadly though politicians seem to work to agendas that serve corporations and their own futures rather than the public and the earths needs. So much can be done but greed and profit often seems to stand in the way.
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Post by triitout on Aug 5, 2018 0:18:49 GMT
It's a cause worth promoting. I don't want to be associated with the question future generations will ask....."What were they thinking???" . I'm glad to see such as good forum discussion. Maybe it's a stretch but I like to think that the Viscount attraction that we share is in part a recognition of an innovative approach which is just what we need to move the needle now. Do what you can. Vote for the right people. See if rooftop solar makes sense for you. See if an EV can be a good second car for you if you're a 2 car family. Start a conversation with your associates who may not understand the dynamics in play. I the usa there are local governments stepping up to the plate with forward thinking. Hopefully it's not too late. Thanks to all who are following this thread and participating. It's a start!
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Post by blackwizard on Aug 5, 2018 1:01:17 GMT
I think this has been a brilliant thread, you are right, we cannot ignore the move away from ICE and hopefully the developers will soon make EV’a that are capable of taking me the 2,000km from the UK to Italy each year but until then what options are there if you wish to travel by car? Also I’m sorry but my old TVR will still be used, I’m sure any red blooded human cannot believe the noise from this does not make them smile as opposed to the whisper from an EV.........will be down in Italy soon and the Abruzzo mountains will be reverberating to the sound of this car. It’s funny that I get people stopping and asking me about this car but have not seen the same for an EV yet or am I just not looking hard enough 😂 flic.kr/p/Gm8mPuflic.kr/p/EPEWjg
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Post by triitout on Aug 5, 2018 2:02:19 GMT
I think this has been a brilliant thread, you are right, we cannot ignore the move away from ICE and hopefully the developers will soon make EV’a that are capable of taking me the 2,000km from the UK to Italy each year but until then what options are there if you wish to travel by car? Also I’m sorry but my old TVR will still be used, I’m sure any red blooded human cannot believe the noise from this does not make them smile as opposed to the whisper from an EV.........will be down in Italy soon and the Abruzzo mountains will be reverberating to the sound of this car. It’s funny that I get people stopping and asking me about this car but have not seen the same for an EV yet or am I just not looking hard enough 😂 flic.kr/p/Gm8mPuflic.kr/p/EPEWjgNicholas, I too love the old stuff and that is a very cool car. I have little doubt my all-time favorite car will remain my eggplant colored 1993 Ford Taurus, may it rest in peace! Quite the brilliant bang-up job on the Lambert! The tug of the past and current vs the uncertain yet exciting future is what keeps life interesting.
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Post by blackwizard on Aug 5, 2018 3:06:08 GMT
I’m like you, never write off the past or ignore the future. So many condemn Carbon Frames over Steel, Disk Brakes over Calliper, Aero shifter over Down tube, the list is endless but I enjoy my Lambert and other old steel as much as my modern bike, I ride with clipless or not depending on the age of the bike, I enjoy the TVR but my modern car beats it hands down for a two day dash to Italy.
What people forget is aerospace frames were once the new kid on the block, I wonder if cyclists then said how poor they are, stick to the heavy plain gauge lugged steel frames with SA hub gears.....?
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Post by oldroadietehachapi on Aug 5, 2018 7:23:19 GMT
I wonder if cyclists then said how poor they are, stick to the heavy plain gauge lugged steel frames with SA hub gears.....? I am old enough to remember what they said. Innovative, light, flimsy, cheap, nice ride, and inconsistent build quality come to mind. Campy equipped lugged frames were considered the best bikes. Then, as now, bike snobs put them down; rebels embraced them. As usual, I was repulsed by the opinion of bike snobs; so I loved the little buggers.
Cheers Jim
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Jem
Viscount
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Posts: 3,375
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Post by Jem on Aug 5, 2018 16:19:22 GMT
I think this has been a brilliant thread, you are right, we cannot ignore the move away from ICE and hopefully the developers will soon make EV’a that are capable of taking me the 2,000km from the UK to Italy each year but until then what options are there if you wish to travel by car? Also I’m sorry but my old TVR will still be used, I’m sure any red blooded human cannot believe the noise from this does not make them smile as opposed to the whisper from an EV.........will be down in Italy soon and the Abruzzo mountains will be reverberating to the sound of this car. It’s funny that I get people stopping and asking me about this car but have not seen the same for an EV yet or am I just not looking hard enough 😂 flic.kr/p/Gm8mPuflic.kr/p/EPEWjgIt must be like when the steam loco drivers went from coal to diesel...lost all the romance and fun I bet. That TVR looks like a real car to me and probably great fun to drive. I don't do many miles in the old VW T25 in a year but I love driving it (no power steering) and none of this computerised management system. It feels like I am really driving. Untitled by Sooper 8, on Flickr
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Post by blackwizard on Aug 5, 2018 22:08:45 GMT
The TVR is a drivers car and I will concede what my wife says is not for the passenger. It’s noisy, hard ride, windy, has no ABS or power steering but is built on a backbone chassis, very tail end happy if you get things wrong and for me an absolute joy 😂
I do unwind in this driving through the Italian mountains on my own, it is pure selfish indulgence I will admit but hell, why not. The old girl will be out there in September and is sat waiting for me to arrive along worth a dozen old bikes along win a few more I’m taking down with me from the UK, those being a 1939 Carlton Flyer that has just been repainted, 1950’s ish Sun Soleil D’Or I just acquired and a 1954 Carlton Courette that is totally original and in lovely condition, will be serviced and polished up, fitted with a wicker shoppping basket and be my wife’s Market day bike - yes she watches too many films but it is a lovely bike and fits the part perfectly.
Enjoy the VW and some cycling trips,
Nick
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Post by triitout on Sept 5, 2018 1:10:13 GMT
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