|
|
Post by wheelson on Sept 29, 2017 2:56:28 GMT
I recently joined the group after buying a suspected Viscount Aerospace on another forum. As I mentioned in my intro, I really can't find a Viscount with all the features this frameset has. Admittedly, the frameset has been painted and modifications could have been made. Items in question by degree of difficulty:
1) Top of top tube cable guides. I've yet to find a photo of a Viscount lugless frame with top of top tube guides.
2) Fully sloping fork crown, although fork is probably a replacement as steerer tube threads have been added I have seen photos of Viscounts with this fork crown. 3) Scalloped top of seat tube. All lugless I'm seeing have straight cut.
4) The main plus is the frame has the traditional sealed bearing bottom bracket with circlips on the axle. The head, top, and down tubes have a fairly distinctive Viscount look, as seen as in photos on this site of a red Aerospace Gran Sport.
So what is this mongrel? Is it even a Viscount Aerospace? www.flickr.com/photos/wheelson2011/albums/72157686445659881 All thoughts appreciated!
Best, J. "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
Jem
Viscount
?
Posts: 3,380 
|
Post by Jem on Sept 29, 2017 18:17:47 GMT
Hi Wheelson,
I could be wrong (and it could also be someone has modified it), but it just doesn't say Aerospace to me. But we have members here who know far more than me and will give you a definitive answer I am sure
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Sept 29, 2017 18:54:45 GMT
Thanks. I know, it has me questioning it as well. The bottom end, the seat stay cluster (less scalloped top) the head tube junctions, and the lugless brazing I can see, as well as the serial number. The scalloped seat tube top, the top of the top tube brake cable guides, and the water bottle cage braze ons make no sense at all except as add-ons; however they do look original. Frame weight as shown with bottom bracket and without fork is about 4.47 lbs.
Anyone know of another filet brazed (bronze welded) bike of this era with the classic Viscount pressed in bottom bracket bearings?
Best, J "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
Jem
Viscount
?
Posts: 3,380
|
Post by Jem on Sept 29, 2017 19:21:59 GMT
I'm struggling to find a good picture that you could compare to, but on yours where the seat stays are brazed on to seat tube, just doesn't look like classic Aerospace dimensions/shape/look. The brazed cable guides, could be later addition, so might be a red herring? The only one that had brazed on bottle cage was the SuperBike (see below)  Supabike by Sooper 8, on Flickr  Viscount Aerospace Supabike by Sooper 8, on Flickr I have a Viscount with scalloped seat tube, but I can't remember which one it is, but pretty sure it's not an Aerospace? EDIT- It was the Deore but that is lugged frame,so rules it out |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Sept 29, 2017 23:48:11 GMT
Thanks, Sooper 8, for the reply. I see a lot of similarities between the Supabike and my frame. Looks like the Supabike has a seatpost collar and top tube cable clamps. Other than that and my frame's replacement fork, not too much different. Possibly some intermediate frame between the Supabike and the lugged Deore? The 1st generation Dura Ace crankset on the Supabike would make it in the mid-70's, right? I remember it's intro from a Schwinn World Voyageur during my '74-'79 second stint in a North Carolina bike shop.
Additional notes: my seatpost size is 26.8, tubing feels straight gage judging by the flick test. The rear dropout faces have a knurled finish. I believe the frame is made for a 700C wheel, although I haven't tried a 27". Rear brake drop is about 54mm with a 700C wheel. Front is in the 60's, possibly a replacement 27" fork? A lot of perhaps meaningless details, can you tell I'm a retired engineer?!
Best,
John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Sept 30, 2017 5:14:47 GMT
I guess I will toss my 2 cent's worth into the pot. I have two Viscounts, one has a straight cutoff at the top of the seat tube, the other is scalloped. My frames are both 57cm, one frame weighs 4 pounds 0 ounces painted, and the other 4 pounds 2 ounces bare. One has better finished fillet joints than the other. Your rear dropout certainly looks like the homely, Trusty made, drop outs that were used on Viscounts. I also think that the overall frame design looks very Lambert/Viscount. The seatpost is the correct size. One of my bikes has its serial number (533676) in the same location and format, the other does not. The fork looks wrong but most Aerospace frames have a replacement fork. To me, the brazons look completely wrong (except for the rear derailleur cable guide and stop) for an Aerospace; perhaps there was a change I don't know about. I think it more likely that that the brazeons were added. This is supported by the bike being a repaint and the cable guides on the BB shell not being of the same type. Adding brazeons is a simple task for a frame shop, and once very popular. My best guess is that it is of the Viscount Aerospace family with modified brazeons. My Viscount bikes can be seen at www.pedalroom.com/bike/1976-viscount-aerospace-34868and at www.pedalroom.com/bike/1976-viscount-lambert-aerospace-pro-27896All the Best Jim |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Sept 30, 2017 13:19:57 GMT
Jim, thanks for the reply, it confirms what I suspect that it falls within the somewhat chaotic framework of Viscount. I won't attempt a restoration since the paint is in pretty good shape and I already have too many near-correct bikes that I can't ride on a daily basis. I will use Crane/Titlist/Dura Ace, low gears for old guy legs, probably 700C, and a sealed press-in bb. set similar to the original. I have a threadless YST and a set of Italian taps but I'd like to keep the "heart and soul" of the bike as long as possible. I will decal it as a Viscount, based on yours and other replies here on this list. Glad to be here!
Thanks again for the reply.
John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Sept 30, 2017 14:10:47 GMT
|
|
robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
|
Post by robt on Sept 30, 2017 14:18:43 GMT
I've just been out to the shed with my camera to take some pictures for comparison. I pressed the shutter button by accident on my way through the door, but you get the idea (l to r: Gold A/S Grand Sport, Red Sebring, Yellow 1995 Raleigh M-TRAX MTB, Red A/S Victor, Blue 2000 GT Force road bike, etc...). Sorry they aren't all clean and polished:  DSC02705 by RMT@261, on Flickr The photo below shows the shape of the sloping (steel) fork crown on the Aerospace Grand Sport frame hanging on my shed wall:  DSC02714 by RMT@261, on Flickr Your fork crown, as pictured below, looks to have a bit more of a concave curve and more sharply defined shoulders than mine. Its a very elegant fork, but possibly not a Viscount original. I guess you have tested it with a magnet to confirm that it is steel, rather than aluminium?  36712496003_4687cc6361_o by RMT@261, on Flickr The cable guides pictured below are on my red Victor, and show a different shape of guide from yours (pictured further below) - the Viscount ones look like bits of curved tube brazed directly to the b/b shell, which the cables need to be threaded through, whereas yours appear to have a shaped tongue for the brazing area, and open guides that you could clip the cable into without needing a free end, as on the bolt-on cable guides fitted to my Grand Sports:  DSC02711 by RMT@261, on Flickr  Viscount5 by wheelson2011, on Flickr The top of the (26.8mm i.d.) seat tube on my Victor has a similar, but possibly shallower, scalloping to your frame:  DSC02707 by RMT@261, on Flickr The final picture is of the rear dropouts on the A/S Grand Sport frame - similar to yours, but probably also to thousands of others at the time.  DSC02713 by RMT@261, on Flickr My tendency is with Jim - it could be a Viscount frame that has been given some tasteful and functional updates by a former owner. It's fully brazed, so probably not an A/S Victor, which would normally have a lugged head tube, and definitely not a Sebring, which would be fully lugged and weigh the same as a small car. The fact we have come to recognise over time is that absolute consistency of design & build was never one of Viscount's strong points. Good luck with your quest to identify your frame's true heritage! |
|
robt
Viscount
Posts: 558
|
Post by robt on Sept 30, 2017 15:05:01 GMT
Just noticed that the b/b cable guides on my Viscount A/S Sport are very similar to yours:  DSC02716 by RMT@261, on Flickr P.S. I'm also an Engineer, so I feel no need for you to apologise for quantity of details! I also like your frame colour, very similar to my GT Force, shown here on the DFR5 survey run:  Orchard field by RMT@261, on Flickr |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Sept 30, 2017 17:51:47 GMT
Thanks, Jim. That blue really attracted me although I guess it's not correct for the V. That's a sharp Moto, I really like what you've done with it. I think I've seen your posts before, on CR or iBob. Always good to be among friends.
I'm in Greensburg, Pennsylvania (about 35 miles east of Pittsburgh, in the foothills). Since I retired from my engineering career, I formed Wheelson Cycles, LLC, a single person llc buying and selling on the internet and subcontracting my bike repair skills for the past few years to a local bike in Youngwood, a 5.5 mile one way commute on the local rail trail. I believe you're in Arizona, right?
Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Sept 30, 2017 18:19:49 GMT
Just noticed that the b/b cable guides on my Viscount A/S Sport are very similar to yours: DSC02716 by RMT@261, on Flickr P.S. I'm also an Engineer, so I feel no need for you to apologise for quantity of details! I also like your frame colour, very similar to my GT Force, shown here on the DFR5 survey run: Orchard field by RMT@261, on Flickr Robt, thanks for your detailed reply. It's nice to see sheds with multiple bikes in close quarters such as my own, but I guess when they have been a major part of my life even longer than my wife of 41 years, all should be forgiven!
I have pretty much concluded that mine is a Viscount, if nothing else than by the signature bottom bracket. I can't remember another bike of this era with this type but I'm always open to correction. I see bits and pieces that correlate to various Viscount models but if Richard Sachs the American framebuilder says "perfection is imperfection" then in Viscount's case "consistency is inconsistency". It doesn't matter to me, I've wanted one since I first saw the '70s ads. It will mingle proudly as my only British bike with my '74 Schwinn Paramount P-15, '84 Schwinn Voyageur SP, '79 Austro Daimler Vent Noir ll, various Cannondales, '83 Bianchi Grizzly mtb, '85 Schwinn High Sierra mtb, and all the other critters I've accumulated.
Best, John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by cusqueno on Oct 1, 2017 14:28:33 GMT
The serial number on the bb shell looks similar to other Viscount ones. There is a database of frame numbers on this forum - see first thread on general board. Don't expect any dramatic revelation of what model you have though - the numbers don't seem to work like that.
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 1, 2017 18:47:07 GMT
Thanks, cusqueno. Agreed, the serial numbers seem to have no bearing on the specific model or year. It works the same with my Austro Daimler Vent Noir II. I've owned about 5 A-D's of all different models and its the same story. I guess it doesn't matter which Viscount model it is since I don't plan a full restoration anyway, it's just the engineer (and amateur genealogist) in me that presses for an answer!
Best,
John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 3, 2017 18:53:56 GMT
I just popped the bottom bracket axle and one bearing to take a look at the inside of the bb shell for upcoming rebuild. In typical Viscount style, the tubes all extend into the shell. I would have to trim the tubes back for anything other than bone stock original (which I plan to do anyway) since a threadless sealed unit or even my Tanaka Italian thread tap with the reamer thread lead-in would have no clearance. Again, no problem since I have some original style stuff on order. No snap ring grooves but I have a work around planned and I'll post if it works out. The bb axle appears to be the Lambert taperless style, although someone did a number on the drive side flats with a file.
Interesting, I was expecting to see some remnants of a prior paint job to help with ID, but everything is clean as a whistle. Nice to see only a few flecks of rust. I suppose I should mic all the tubing wall thickness while I have it opened up.
Best,
John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by oldroadietehachapi on Oct 7, 2017 4:32:28 GMT
I would have to trim the tubes back for anything other than bone stock original (which I plan to do anyway) since a threadless sealed unit or even my Tanaka Italian thread tap with the reamer thread lead-in would have no clearance. Best, John "wheelson" Wilson Viscount was a bit sloppy; so trimming the excess tubing in the BB shell is a common modification. Cheers Jim |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 7, 2017 12:38:44 GMT
Sloppy or "field expedient" I guess. I saw a lot of that during the '70s bike boom years. One would think that trimming that excess tubing might have been a way to cut a few more ounces off a highly-advertised super lightweight. I'm still considering trimming even if I go back to the original configuration which I really want to do as it drew me to this bike back in the day. Lambert/Viscount certainly had an excellent advertising campaign.
I believe this frame was built for 700C although the "replacement" fork seems to be 27" - a rather large difference in brake reach. I'll likely go side pull as I'm building this bike as a minimalist exercise.
Best,
John "Wheelson"
|
|
|
|
Post by proaktive52 on Oct 23, 2017 21:12:02 GMT
Hi John
if you look at my recent post of aerospace pro renovation, it might give a little food for thought as I am now thinking mine is a Sport not Pro but took some close ups for exactly this type of communication
Best Regards from over the pond
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 25, 2017 1:05:21 GMT
Thanks, I looked at your photos - most interesting! That fork crown is the closest to mine I've seen, but the dropouts are totally different. I also believe my frame is made for 700C but the fork is 27", quite the mongrel! What is your seatpost diameter? I see many 26.6 Lambert/Viscount posts listed. Mine is 26.8, I have no idea if this is significant.
I hope the listmembers will forgive me, I'm badging mine as a Viscount Aerospace but no more detailed at this time. I'm building it with Crane/Titlist derailleurs, Viscount leather saddle like yours, and keeping the traditional sealed bottom bracket with updated axle and at least the signature Lambert chain ring (at least the outer). Everything else is subject to change but period correct as much as possible. I'm shooting for a lightweight climbing bike under 20 lbs.
Best,
John "Wheelson"
|
|
Jem
Viscount
?
Posts: 3,380
|
Post by Jem on Oct 25, 2017 6:03:44 GMT
John - I could mail Steve 'Bustaste' to drop by and cast his eye over this thread. There's not much that Steve doesn't know about Lambert/Viscount and if he can't ID a bike then there's no-one else to turn to.
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 25, 2017 12:26:55 GMT
Thanks for the note. I love a good mystery, and it sounds like Lambert / Viscount is prime in that respect. If Steve can help, I would certainly appreciate it. There are so many bogeys here: the mismatched fork, brazed on cable guides, downtube brazed on water bottle bosses, . . . The scalloped seat post and 28.8 seat post size seem original. Everything else seems pure Viscount. The 20lb. goal seems entirely feasible. Whatever the outcome, this is becoming my favorite project.
Best,
John "wheelson"
|
|
|
|
Post by proaktive52 on Oct 25, 2017 18:20:50 GMT
Hi John
I have started to clean the frame and have taken a few more photos of the bottom bracket and cable guides (which are shimano) added to flickr
Also rear drops are milremo with holes for screw thread for spindle adjustment
Confirmed seat post is 26.8mm
Date from rear of crank arm 1977; During more cleaning I am sure more will be revealed.
The bike has a lot of "Pro items" but comment from earlier posts (black decal + clincher wheels = Sport) I think
Could you give me some advice of how to get the spindle and bearings out as it difficult to turn and need refurb, thanks
Richard
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 25, 2017 19:46:45 GMT
Richard, I'm sure there are posts somewhere in the Tech section, perhaps. Mine came out relatively easy: I removed the snap rings and tapped on one end of the bb shaft with a plastic head mallet. The shaft took the drive side bearing out with it, I then tapped the other out from the inside. I believe the bearings are readily available. I expect you will re-use your b.b. shaft. I didn't, see my "Bottom Bracket Hack" in the tech section. I don't know what your mechanical background is. Mine is/was bike mechanic, nuke missile radar tech, electro/mech test engineer but mostly blacksmith!
Best,
John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by busaste on Oct 25, 2017 20:06:03 GMT
Hi
Hope you are all well!
Not been on the forum for AGES!
That's mainly been for three reasons:
a) working on my Viscount book (which is turning out to be far harder than I thought mainly due to former employees not being willing to help).
b) restoring a 1986 Honda VFR750 motorcycle. I have run out of Viscount projects to do so I just thought, "why not?" Financial and physical ruin soon followed...
c) don't laugh, cleaning/servicing my Viscounts. I have - ahem - a few and keeping on top of alloy corrosion, rust and the passage of time is a full time job.
Oh, and I have to work longish hours too. Not good.
Any way, as for the frame, it's easy! The frame is off an early (probably 1975) Viscount Aerospace Gran Sports (the missing 'd' off Gran is not a spelling mistake by the way!). What has thrown people a bit are:
a) the later/non factory brazed on cable guides on the top tube and bottom bracket.
b) the later/non factory brazed on bottle cage bosses
c) none standard paint job - the forks were half chromed. A repaint would have been required after all the frame modifications.
Why do I say 'early' Aerospace frame? Two giveaways for this:
a) presence of the early 3 circlip groove BB spindle.
b) the seat tube top is scalloped. Some later Aerospace frames did emerge with scalloped seat posts on models like the Viscount Aerospace SE BUT these were simply cobbled together from unused and unfinished Lambert triangles that had been lying around for years. Seat/chain stays and a lugged head tube were brazed on to finish them off. I used one of these SE frames for my 'bitsa' which I built up a few years ago.
Those early aerospace frames with the scalloped seat tube were basically unused Lambert frames. These frames and literally thousands of unused parts came with the factory when Cope Allman International bought out the bankrupt remains of Lambert of England.
|
|
|
|
Post by proaktive52 on Oct 25, 2017 20:13:23 GMT
Thanks John will have ago tomorrow
Ex Civil Engineer come bike tinkerer of 13 months; got interested in this when did my viscount Tulsa up last year and one thing leads to a room full of bikes!
Richard
Hi Bustaste
Steve, Would you give me the benefit of your knowledge for my latest purchase (recent purchase for renovation)
From the comments above I reckon mines a Gran Sports too, thank you in advance
Best Regards
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 25, 2017 20:21:55 GMT
Thanks for the positive ID. I had assumed the brazed on "irregulars" were later additions, never assumed it was an early Gran Sports. I had erroneously assumed a later transition frame. Never assume anything, I guess. As a (retired) engineer I should have known better. Again, thanks so much for the ID, mystery solved!
Best,
John "wheelson" Wilson
|
|
|
|
Post by triitout on Oct 26, 2017 0:21:40 GMT
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the ring. I'm actually going to disagree with Busaste on John's bike. The USA version Gran Sports model did not have sealed bottom bracket bearing as of my 1976 brochure and I also own one. The forks could have been swapped out after the recall in addition to all the custom work that was done. Only the Pro, GP and Sport had sealed bottom bracket bearings in the USA versions. I think that Proactiv52's bike can't be a Gran Sport for the same reason. I'd say it's a Pro. I've seen pictures of the Pro in silver with only the black panel on the downtube like yours much like this one. i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/ReIAAOSwriZZldK5/s-l225.jpgI remember foolishly passing up one of Busaste's for sale Pro frames in that paint scheme years ago. Where did that one end up??!! Cheers, Michael |
|
|
|
Post by wheelson on Oct 26, 2017 13:55:41 GMT
Michael,
Thanks for your 2 cents. This board is really great, and I'm becoming quite obsessive about the whole Lambert Viscount thing. I've gone from "is it a Viscount?" to very deep into model and year. Since I won't be doing an exact restoration, I feel safe in badging it as a Viscount Aerospace, also assuming from Busaste's, yours, and others comments that it is likely Gran Sport or Sport. I'm trying to keep the look and feel of the Lambert/Viscount and will post some additional photos in the very near future. All-in-all, great fun with this project.
Best,
John "wheelson"
|
|
|
|
Post by proaktive52 on Oct 30, 2017 13:20:41 GMT
Hi John
Used your advice, thankyou; Bought some circlip pliers, got the clips off and tapped out the BB spindle, then tapped out the 6003DU bearings which were shot; quite a lot of rust in the BB and spindle pitted.
Used a little wire wool to clean off the paint off the lower forks and found they were chromed to 9" from drops.
Took a few more photos and added to link, the work on these heavy "replacement" forks is poor (see photos)
Now all stripped and on with cleaning up the bits; thinking of changing the downtube shifters shown for some Dura ace ex 7200 ones (any thoughts)
wheels are a mixture schothorst rear rim on pelissier hub and unknown clincher of what looks like shimano large flange hub on the front but spokes have had it.
New bearings on order, then get frame to shotblast shop
Best Regards
|
|
|
|
Post by busaste on Nov 5, 2017 16:03:54 GMT
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the ring. I'm actually going to disagree with Busaste on John's bike. The USA version Gran Sports model did not have sealed bottom bracket bearing as of my 1976 brochure and I also own one. The forks could have been swapped out after the recall in addition to all the custom work that was done. Only the Pro, GP and Sport had sealed bottom bracket bearings in the USA versions. I think that Proactiv52's bike can't be a Gran Sport for the same reason. I'd say it's a Pro. I've seen pictures of the Pro in silver with only the black panel on the downtube like yours much like this one. i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/ReIAAOSwriZZldK5/s-l225.jpgI remember foolishly passing up one of Busaste's for sale Pro frames in that paint scheme years ago. Where did that one end up??!! Cheers, Michael One of the big problems which affected Viscount right from day one was parts supply, not just in terms of the right parts but the quantities too. The frame builders relentlessly kept belting out the frames onto the production line and, for a few years, the order books really were bulging but the management team were not able to keep frames and parts in sync with each other. Consequently, the factory often had to vary the specification of its machines simply to ensure that frames coming off the production line were turned into finished production bikes on time - when a production line fires up you have to keep feeding it parts, come what may. Dropping frames off the production line and temporarily parking them was never going to be a financially viable option. Hence for example, we had Sebrings with Huret derailleurs, Aerospace Pro's with Suntour derailleurs and Orange/Silver paint schemes and, Gran Sports with sealed bearing bottom brackets... Admittedly there were not many of these deviations from the brochure specification but even now there are still a few out there to keep us - extreme - Viscount nerds on our toes. So far, I have recorded two very original looking and unmolested Gran Sports with sealed bearing bottom brackets in the USA! It seems likely that Proactiv52's bike is the third of these to add to my mongrel Gran Sport collection although as I have been unable to find any former Viscount employees who knew anything about the companies frame numbering system I cannot be 100% sure that it isn't an Aerospace Pro frame as Michael maintains.
What I am 100% certain of though is that Viscount did make Gran Sports with the sealed bearing bottom bracket. That's one of the things I like about Viscount - you never quite new what they would turn out next, often for no fault of their own! |
|
